No Oil Pressure

[FourLoti]

Maybe I missed it, but did you try another filter?  These are from another Elan forum thread:

Ron

By any chance had you recently replaced the oil filter shortly before noticing the zero oil pressure condition? Did you replace the filter again when installing the new oil pump? Many years ago I installed what turned out to be a bad oil filter. All was fine for the first 20 or 30 miles and then I had zero oil pressure. I replaced the oil filter a second time and normal oil pressure returned immediately.
Russ Newton
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PostPost by: EEED » Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:43 pm

Russ,

Thanks for posting.Yes, I had just changed the oil and replaced the filter. No-one I contacted thought that the filter could (potentially) be the problem although I'm sure I explained that I had just changed the oil and filter.

At least if anyone has a similar problem and tries a search on the Forums they should find this - it could be a money-saver.

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PostPost by: oldchieft » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:24 pm

I recall one post at least about this.

lotus-twincam-f39/loss-oil-pressure-t30804.html#p206519

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PostPost by: ericbushby » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:08 am

I also had zero oil pressure about 60 miles after changing the filter. The pressure gradually fell during about 2 miles of running.
After exhaustive investigation and finding no faults another filter was fitted. All was well then and it has been fine ever since. It is now due for another oil and filter change and I will be very careful where I buy the filter.
Eric in Burnley
1967 Series 3 DHC

[kram350kram]

Since you tried two pumps, I presume the pressure regulator /bypass valve is in the block somewhere ? The valve could stick fully open and just circulating oil back to the sump?

[EuropaTC]

Oil pump tolerances checked, and they are 2 thou, so well within limits.

Well, at least now we know you've got a good pump and not something made in XXXa with no QC.

Curious - when you pulled the plate to check the rotors, was the pump full of oil or vaseline ? If oil then it's getting as far as the pump, the vaseline is now filling an oil way somewhere and so the hunt for the internal leak is the next step.

Brian

[4129R]

Maybe I missed it, but did you try another filter?  These are from another Elan forum thread:

Ron

Funny you should say that. I thought of exactly that this morning. I have tried 3 different brand new oil filters from 2 different manufacturers.

[4129R]

Since you tried two pumps, I presume the pressure regulator /bypass valve is in the block somewhere ? The valve could stick fully open and just circulating oil back to the sump?

The pressure release valve is in the pump itself, and appears to be working correctly, spring loaded.

[4129R]

If oil then it's getting as far as the pump, the vaseline is now filling an oil way somewhere and so the hunt for the internal leak is the next step.

Brian

When I checked the tolerance by taking the filter and three bolted plate off, I saw the Vaseline was on the underside of the filter holder, i.e. on the aluminium, just above the canister oil filter.

[4129R]

My next thought is to swap the oil pump and filter attached with another oil pump and filter attached on another working Europa TC that I use regularly.

That way I can see if the pump and filter from the non working car works on the working car, and vice versa.

That will eliminate the oil and filter from the problem, and would lead me to deduce that the problem lies beyond the pump and filter, and beyond the oil pressure flange.

If the pump and filter from the working car does not work on the non-working car, I will have no option other than to take the engine out of the non-working car, and see what lies beyond the oil pressure take off flange.

Then, I propose the remove the water pump assembly, disconnect the timing chain, and attach an electric drill to the lay shaft to rotate the oil pump quickly with no other parts rotating so there is nothing that can seize through non lubrication except the lay shaft which will have no external pressure on its bearings. With oil in the sump, the oil pump being driven by an electric drill, I should be able to trace what is or is not happening, without damaging the engine moving parts. 

As the local garage says, the oil must be going somewhere if the pump is circulating the oil through the filter.

[4129R]

I am now treating this as a scientific challenge.

New oil pump, new oil filter, new oil, new oil pressure gauge pipe fitted.

No oil pressure on fast turn-over with the plugs out.

With the gauge pipe disconnected at the block, oil comes out from the block union in a steady stream.

Next in the experiment, disconnect oil pressure pipe from working car with good oil pressure, take out the plugs, and see how the oil stream out of the union compares with the non-working engine.

If both engines show the same sort of oil squirt, either the gauge is faulty, or there is a leak further down the oilways in the block beyond the union on the block, which is leaking oil.

I am thinking of a leaky hosepipe. If there is a leak in the pipe, the water would rather go out of the leak rather than the spray part restriction on the end of the hose. If the spray part (oil pressure gauge pipe) is removed, water will come out of the open hose (block union) rather than the leak in the pipe. Oil like water will find the path of least resistance, and if the oilway is leaking further down the oilway from the block union, it will come out of that leak rather than pressurise the gauge at the block union.

Well that is my theory. Please tell me where my logic is wrong.

[EuropaTC]

Your logic seems fine to me, but as none of us have managed to solve this one, perhaps having the same thoughts isn't a good thing !

The only thing that's crossed my mind is that when I say mine gets pressure on cranking I am using a 0/40 oil and not the original 20/50 which I know many folks prefer. That should make getting pressure easier and perhaps that's the reason I'm used to seeing the needle move.  I don't know what viscosity you've got, but if you've not filled the sump yet and were going to use 20/50 then I would be tempted to put in a cheap 0/40 to see if the lower cold viscosity manages to get oil flowing around. You can always change it early if you're not happy with it, especially if it's cheap stuff.

When you remove the oil gauge feed, to follow the logic you've got 40psi oil taking the easiest route into fresh air so I would have expected a proper squirt, a few inches at least. The comparison with a known oil system that's working is a good idea. (is that why you've got so many Europas ?    )

Otherwise, as said before, I'm stumped. I've attached the lubrication system diagram as I don't think it's given in the later manuals and that shows the oil flow around the engine, high & low pressure feeds and returns.

To get no pressure at all when the pump is known to be good and you've changed oil/filter/pump gives me a list of either an air leak on the suction side between the gauze & pump inlet so the pump lobes never fill properly,  a blocked filter (but you've changed them) or a massive leak somewhere in the block, almost like a missing shell or thrust washer.

I missed the start of this saga so I'll just ask if you've ever had this engine running with good oil pressure or is it the first start up since you bought it  ? The comments in an earlier post about mayonnaise in the sump make me think it's not a fresh rebuild ?

Brian

[GavinT]

What I know about TC oil pumps could be scratched on the back of an aspirin with a crowbar, however...

Did you end up swapping the oil pump to the working engine?

Is it possible to remove the outer oil pump gear, replace the plate and jury rig a force feed of oil into the block via the orifice where the pick-ip pipe locates?
I'm thinking if it doesn't hold pressure, then there's an escape route not accounted for thus far.

And something that might be unrelated but the Lotus 907/912 engines sometimes display an issue of not sucking oil from the sump because the plastic olive that seals the pick-ip pipe into the block can leak and the factory says it should be replaced with a new item each time.

And yes, Brian's comment about mayonnaise also has me wondering

[4129R]

Your logic seems fine to me, but as none of us have managed to solve this one, perhaps having the same thoughts isn't a good thing !

The only thing that's crossed my mind is that when I say mine gets pressure on cranking I am using a 0/40 oil and not the original 20/50 which I know many folks prefer. That should make getting pressure easier and perhaps that's the reason I'm used to seeing the needle move.  I don't know what viscosity you've got, but if you've not filled the sump yet and were going to use 20/50 then I would be tempted to put in a cheap 0/40 to see if the lower cold viscosity manages to get oil flowing around. You can always change it early if you're not happy with it, especially if it's cheap stuff.

When you remove the oil gauge feed, to follow the logic you've got 40psi oil taking the easiest route into fresh air so I would have expected a proper squirt, a few inches at least. The comparison with a known oil system that's working is a good idea. (is that why you've got so many Europas ?    )

Otherwise, as said before, I'm stumped. I've attached the lubrication system diagram as I don't think it's given in the later manuals and that shows the oil flow around the engine, high & low pressure feeds and returns.

To get no pressure at all when the pump is known to be good and you've changed oil/filter/pump gives me a list of either an air leak on the suction side between the gauze & pump inlet so the pump lobes never fill properly,  a blocked filter (but you've changed them) or a massive leak somewhere in the block, almost like a missing shell or thrust washer.

I missed the start of this saga so I'll just ask if you've ever had this engine running with good oil pressure or is it the first start up since you bought it  ? The comments in an earlier post about mayonnaise in the sump make me think it's not a fresh rebuild ?

Brian

I have never had this engine running. I rebuilt it several years ago and it has been sitting unused for ages. I think this lead to condensation water getting into the oil and forming the gooey creamy stuff that was around the gauze filter on the suction pipe.

Today I will take the plugs out of a working car and crank it over to see what oil pressure it records after 10 seconds cranking. Then I will attach to oil pressure gauge from the non working car and crank the working car over again to see what pressure reading I get.

This will determine what I can achieve on cranking if all is working well, and whether the pressure gauge on the non-working car is reading correctly at low pressures.

I am using Halfords classic car oil in all my engines.

Before I fitted a brand new pump and filter to the non-working car, I took the pump and filter off the working car and it did not work on the non working car. I returned the pump and filter to the working car and got oil pressure straight away. Then I fitted the new pump and filter to the non-working car and got nothing.

[4129R]

Did you end up swapping the oil pump to the working engine?

Yes, the old oil pump did not work in the working car even when the engine was running for a few seconds, but maybe I did not fully prime that pump. When replacing the working pump in the working car, and priming the pump and filter carefully, all worked straight away with plenty of pressure.

Is it possible to remove the outer oil pump gear, replace the plate and jury rig a force feed of oil into the block via the orifice where the pick-ip pipe locates?

No.

And something that might be unrelated but the Lotus 907/912 engines sometimes display an issue of not sucking oil from the sump because the plastic olive that seals the pick-ip pipe into the block can leak and the factory says it should be replaced with a new item each time.

The pick up pipe is pressed into the block a long way, so there is no possibility of an air leak on the suction side from the sump to the pump.

[4129R]

 I've attached the lubrication system diagram as I don't think it's given in the later manuals and that shows the oil flow around the engine, high & low pressure feeds and returns.

Thanks very much for that.

If I end up taking the engine out to do open heart surgery, I will have to see what is going on around the short oil gallery 16, and from 3 onwards.

With the water pump off the front, and with a full sump and the pump and filter in place, I will be able to disconnect the chain on the layshaft and turn over the layshaft quickly to generate pressure, and look into the sump to see if oil is leaking badly from the block into the sump.

[4129R]

Comparative gauges test completed.

Working oil pressure gauge in working car, 40 psi on 10 second turnover with the plugs out.

Non working car oil pressure gauge in working car, 30 psi on 10 second turnover with the plugs out.

So I know the non working car oil pressure gauge reads low oil pressure,  and the non working engine should be producing at least 30 psi on fast turnover. 

Time to compose myself for open heart surgery unless anyone can suggest an alternative.

As a separate problem, how do twin cam owners stop rainwater filling the head around the 1st and 2nd cylinder spark plugs? I put a sheet of vinyl over the whole head, with a reminder to remove on the drivers seat before starting the engine and getting the vinyl into the alternator drive belt mechanism. 

[EuropaTC]

Before I fitted a brand new pump and filter to the non-working car, I took the pump and filter off the working car and it did not work on the non working car. I returned the pump and filter to the working car and got oil pressure straight away. Then I fitted the new pump and filter to the non-working car and got nothing.

That's ominous and makes me think there's something adrift with the engine itself.

Personally when I rebuilt the Elan engine I didn't remove any oil gallery plugs but I'd expect to find at least one on the short gallery, you'll probably need the front cover backing plate off to see that ?
After that my call would be bearings because I don't think there's anything you can do with the feeds to the cams, etc, so I'd be looking for a leak and I expect you're of similar mind.  If there was a blockage in any of the pressure feeds then you'd see that on the gauge, it would register excellent pressure even if the bearings weren't seeing any. 

Pulling the engine seems drastic but at the moment I can't think of anything else. I would be tempted to try it once more with thinner oil, even a 0-30, to see if you get any response at all. That isn't such a wild move, originally these engines were on winter/summer oils and SAE30 was on the spec sheets.

Brian