Author Topic: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump  (Read 708 times)

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Offline TheKid#9

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Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« on: Thursday,November 24, 2022, 05:14:56 PM »
Hi Everyone,

Happy Thanksgiving!
I finally got my Europa back from the shop and it drives great and is running better than ever. However, my water pump is leaking. The belt might be too tight so I may be able to loosen it once I Jack the car up and see if that helps, if not, I may have to take the engine out again :(

Is is possible to put Dave Beans removal water pump on without taking the engine out? We have drove the car over 400 miles and the water pump has yet to seal up.

Thanks,

Offline BDA

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #1 on: Thursday,November 24, 2022, 06:17:49 PM »
Theoretically, it should be possible since EuropaTC explains how to replace the stock water pump without taking the engine out (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=4128.0). Another option is to install an electric water pump (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=3678.0).

Offline TheKid#9

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #2 on: Thursday,November 24, 2022, 08:49:15 PM »
The electric water pump is a really good idea, but how do I stop the leaking of the original? Mine isn’t seized.

Offline BDA

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #3 on: Thursday,November 24, 2022, 09:15:52 PM »
Yeah... you'll have to deal with that first, won't you?

Anyway, you should be able to replace your water pump with a Bean cassette pump given the instructions for replacing the water pump linked to above. Not having anything else on the water pump belt should keep the water pump bearings in good shape for a long time. Some (eg. jbcollier) say that the cassette pump isn't necessary on a TC because of that. It makes sense to me. V-belts of the same size are not always the same size, if you get my drift, so some are a bit tight I hear. I like the idea of a gilmer belt setup for the water pump because there is no force from the belt then. Bean has them if you're interested.

I missed you in West Virginia!!

Offline TheKid#9

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #4 on: Thursday,November 24, 2022, 09:27:45 PM »
I have the gilmer kit from Bean installed though. I think it’s just too tight… But I do not know. It’s a lotus sooooo Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious is my mindset at the moment.

The shop added an idler pulley to it because we couldn’t find the correct belt to fit the gilmer. Could that be the reason as well?

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #5 on: Thursday,November 24, 2022, 10:57:38 PM »
Hi there,

Now you won't want to hear this but.....   

if the pump is leaking then stop driving the car because at some point it's going to fail very, very badly and that could easily leave you stranded. Even worse, if you're in traffic and don't notice the temperature gauge then you'll have every chance of damaging the engine.   The pump relies on a mechanical seal to hold in the water and if that goes (as it did the first time round on mine) then you lose water very rapidly and once the level is below the thermostat, you don't get a correct reading until far too late.

If there's play in the pump pulley (remove belt, pull/push) then it's the bearing going and that will drip until one day it goes catastrophic and water starts spraying everywhere (as per my Elan). If you have any odd noises at all from the pump on starting/revving then you're about to enter that world. Reducing tension in the belt isn't going to fix that one I'm afraid.

It is practical to change the front cover without pulling the engine, I've done it three times now, but I've always removed the head & sump pan. In theory you could get away with just dropping the sump and IIRC that was the method in the very first Elan manuals in '63, but making a seal is very difficult with that method and hence the current advice to remove head & sump. As BDA says, I wrote up the last event and posted on the forum (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=4128.msg44085#msg44085) and at the end of that there's some notes on alternative belts which have varying degrees of tension when fitted.

As for alternatives, I'm not personally convinced on the cassette options because in normal use the OEM pump doesn't fail that often. Lack of use causes the seal to stick, that's one failure method with a low mileage car, and over stressing the belt is supposed to be another. But there's no option to overstress on the Europa, it's a fixed belt.

Mike Walters said at a Club Lotus seminar that pump failures rarely happened on the Europas but the Elans, with the option to  overstress the belt, did have failures. One thing that stood in my mind was that he said most folks over tightened the belt and to pump water around you needed very little force on the pulley. Basically keep the belt just tight enough not to slip and there's enough friction to drive the pump.

One thing that does appeal to me is the electric pump because you then you have the option to circulate after the engine stops and that might prevent heat soak temperature rise in the head gasket area.  Given how long the TC engines last I'm not sure that's essential on this engine, but it's a thought.

Brian

Offline BDA

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #6 on: Friday,November 25, 2022, 09:01:48 AM »
Bean stocks the gilmer belts so there should be no reason to have the wrong size. Additionally, they are standard industrial belts that would be available, either in stock or by order at an industrial supply store. To have the size wrong enough to require an idler is surprising. Without seeing the design of the idler, I couldn’t guess if that could be a cause but it would be a good place to start looking.

I would get rid of the idler setup, follow Brian’s instructions to replace your water pump, and use the correct size belt.

Offline TheKid#9

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #7 on: Friday,November 25, 2022, 09:23:22 AM »
See attachments. We were able to jack the car up and I made some pictures. It seems that it is leaking at the bottom where the oil pan is.

Offline BDA

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #8 on: Friday,November 25, 2022, 09:53:09 AM »
Look at the first picture again. You can clearly see a trail of rust from the weep hole under the pump shaft. The water drips down to the pan and that’s where you see it. Classic water pump failure.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #9 on: Friday,November 25, 2022, 10:54:56 PM »
BDA's right, classic failure point and with the staining I'd say the bearing is breaking up. The seals have gone, it's rusting inside and to make things worse, I'd guess that if that belt is very tight then it's just increasing the speed of breakdown. It's the same way the Elan pump went, light rust stains which I looked at, thought "I'll do that over winter" and kept saying that right up to the point where it took out the main seal and sprayed rusty brown water all over the engine bay.

Fortunately I was at home and just moving the car around at the time.  Honestly, stop driving the car on the roads and get it sorted.  (or don't drive it farther than you're prepared to walk  ;)  )

Edit - I've just read back through the thread and see the shop has fitted an oversize belt, hence the tensioner. It's very neatly done and considering the space you have to work with, it's clever but even so I can't see why it's needed if you can get the correct belt from Bean's. And as BDA said, it's just an industrial belt so if Bean hasn't got any then it's just a case of going through the catalogues and picking one. I'd be surprised if that's the cause of failure though.

Brian

PS - but you do get bonus points  for having a very clean TC engine !
« Last Edit: Friday,November 25, 2022, 11:31:41 PM by EuropaTC »

Offline Dilkris

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #10 on: Thursday,January 12, 2023, 05:56:30 AM »
Not really on the subject of a leaking water pump but related - as you all know I am yet to start work on the body of my car but is it worth incorporating a removable access panel in the fire wall to assist with access to the front of the engine? Or am I missing something and this is not a good idea?     

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #11 on: Thursday,January 12, 2023, 09:03:22 AM »
It depends on how large an opening you intend to make. If it covers the complete front of the engine, sufficient to pull the front cover out into the cabin then yes, it would make removal/replacement easier.

However it's not essential and not having one doesn't mean you'd be pulling the engine to replace the pump.  I've replaced the pump a couple of times now with the engine remaining in place. Once the head is removed then you have a much clearer view and the cover comes upwards into the engine bay. Access to the front cover bolts is easy enough with a 1/4" drive socket, the water pump pulley with a 7/16" (?) stubby spanner and the crank pulley you need to be underneath for anyway.

Depending on where the access port is, it could make life easier when doing cam timing. It's a bit of a mess as it is, especially if you have to remove the cam sprockets. Ok, timing marks are on the back of the sprockets so you can see them without having to look at the front with a mirror but it would give you easier access. It's just a balance of how long it would take to remove carpets/sound insulation/port cover against knuckle scraping the bulkhead.

Brian

Offline Dilkris

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #12 on: Thursday,January 12, 2023, 10:43:03 AM »
I hear you Europa TC - but if the carpets/sound insulation/inspection cover etc was so designed during the rebuild that it was planned to be removed - it could be quick no?

Offline BDA

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #13 on: Thursday,January 12, 2023, 11:31:23 AM »
I put a door in the firewall to access the front of my engine (not a TC). I used 1" extruded aluminum channel to line the hole and accept 10-32 riv-nuts. The door is made from aluminum plate (probably 3/16") that I attached insulation to the back. It's basically as wide as the the frame at that point and pretty square. The door is held on with at least 12 screws. Given the 12 or more screws and that the firewall carpet cover has to be stored somewhere, it is not a very quick operation to open it up and then close it up again. Actually, it's more of a pain but hopefully that description would give you an idea of the time investment and whether it makes sense for your application.

Offline Dilkris

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Re: Dave Bean Removal Water Pump
« Reply #14 on: Friday,January 13, 2023, 12:26:30 AM »
Thanks BDA - I'll keep it all under consideration.