Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Classifieds Forums => FS / WTB: Cars and Rollers => Topic started by: zeuna on Wednesday,April 21, 2021, 10:28:59 AM
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Greetings,
First post from a newbie, not just to this forum, but to all things Europa or even Lotus for that matter. I'm a long-time motorcyclist and petrolhead, but previous run-ins with Jaguar and British Leyland may have unfairly prejudiced me against British cars for a while...
I've been looking to buy a S1/S2 Europa for many years, but recently decided to get more serious in my search by plugging in to this forum and learning from the experts.
Are there any Europa owners nearby (I'm in NC) who wouldn't mind showing me the ropes and helping me get educated? Any wisdom you could impart would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
zeuna
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Welcome!
Alas, I'm too far away to show you my car but here are a few thoughts.
S1: For - lighter, stiffer, very direct and raw.
Against - chassis rot (!!!), huge job to change chassis (!!!), vibration, rattles, squeaks, ventilation, automatic pop-out windows, hard to find, very-very-very noisy at speed, tight quarters, seats are fixed
S2: For- much easier chassis change, less chassis rot than S1, better NVH than S1, opening windows, adjustable seats (somewhat)
Against - too cushy (insert smile-face), thinner panels that flex more, rot-prone seat-belt anchor plates, tight quarters
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:Welcome:
I am not near you and my car is in many pieces at this time...welcome aboard!
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:Welcome: zeuna!!
I hope you find a nice car! Where in MC are you? I’ll be glad to help you any way I can but I’m not really checked out on the S1 or S2.
Make sure you let us know when you get your new baby!
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Thanks for the warm welcome and initial thoughts! I've only ever been in the physical presence of a Twin Cam, but wasn't able to spend much time "getting to know" it.
BDA, i'm just outside of Fayetteville but am up near Waynesville 2-3 times/year. Maybe we can get together at some point. Who knows, your Twin Cam may make a compelling case and change my preference!
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Welcome to the forum, zeuna. Good luck in your search.
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While I liked the S1 and S2 I decided after seeing a couple of Twin Cams in person they look better than I thought!
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:I-agree: Whilst I personally think the TC or TCS is a better looking car, I am beginning to get the impression that the Renault engine is preferable to the twin cam, (This comment is made on the basis of reading threads on this forum and I have no first hand knowledge of the Renault unit - the same however cannot be said for the twin cam.)
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Hmm, I'm not sure that's fair. The Renault is lighter, which is helpful. But it's really the Renault crossflow engine that can be developed to similar levels as the Lotus TC. The stock Renault wedge engine can be stretched to 140+hp but, at that point, it is hardly reliable and definitely not tractable. The Renault crossflow is a little under-square which helps the bottom end, though not the top end, which is useful on the street. Another crossflow advantage is the ability to increase displacement. The Lotus TC is way ahead with the availability of HP parts though: forged cranks, for example, are readily available.
In general, you can make a crossflow that will put out similar power to nice steet-able TC, and the crossflow will be lighter and last longer (TC's bane is it's short valve guides). For high rpm work though, that reverses. The TC will last longer as the crossflow is hard on cams and cranks at high rpm. Both engines are expensive to tune. The parts are available but expensive. Both require careful, skilled machine work. Which is best again? YMMV
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I have neither a Renault nor a TC motor in my car so why am I even replying here? :headbanger:
I do have some opinions that might be useful - which is not necessarily the same thing as being illuminating. My respect for the Renault motor has grown over the years. It's plain that they can be built in street configurations to have performance similar to a TC though I think the TC has a bit better potential overall. I think parts availability, including go-fast parts, is probably easier for a TC too.
Of course, there are those (like me) who think real sports car should have multi-cam engines (obviously that's not a blanket statement but might be considered a preference) and if that means more involved maintenance, so be it.
Having all the pulleys on the back of the Renault motor is a nice feature and I think that makes adding an A/C a bit easier - which is nice.
So I think there is personal choice as well as utility (not to mention body style) that could sway one's choice. As I say, between the two, it would be a TC for me.
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When considering an S2 I decided the Renault would need a turbo to have enough power.....I found a TCS with a turbo so I should have enough power ;)
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If you are looking for an S1/S2. There is also the type 54 S2 with the lower headlights like the S1. I'm an engine swapper so it is all in the body for me.
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:Welcome:
The S2 with the Renault cross flow 807 engine is fairly easy and forgiving for a novice mechanic. Like me. I’ve just inherited one that hadn’t driven in 9 years. And it was fairly easy to get it going again.
All be it. The driving quarters are pretty cramped, I’m 6’1” and it is a squeeze getting in. I’ll be needing some racing trainers to drive it.
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Hello Zeuna,
:Welcome:
Mark
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A Type 54 with a crossflow head is my ideal (or at least it is as far as I know thus far), but that seems like the hardest to find. Not sure how long i'd be willing to wait!
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My type 65 with TS head and Webers was just about exactly what I had been looking for.
Prices seem to be going up pretty rapidly of late, maybe because the Porsche price demand has already gotten ridiculous despite their being common and inferior? >:D :))
So waiting for just the right Europa may no be an option much longer.
If the price of admission gets too high what is left for the restoration?
If you are rebuilding an engine anyway the TS conversion may be less expensive than buying a car already converted?
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I don't know all the avenues you are using to search but I used adhuntr to search Craigslist ads on my side of the country. I ended up finding something out of state.
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@Richard48Y: is a TS head the factory wedge head (non-crossflow) that came on the original Renault engine? Are you running a dual Weber setup (side-drafts I assume)? Would you mind posting a photo?
@Clifton: yes, my search is pretty wide ranging. I am looking nationwide (perhaps I should be looking in Canada as well?) and did recently talk to a gentleman with an S2 for sale. I'm waiting for some more detailed photos from him after our discussion yesterday. I'd appreciate a link to anything you stumble upon that might be of interest.
Thanks again to everyone!
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"TS" head is the cross-flow head.
Seems calling it a "Gordini" is not technically correct.
"Hemi is not completely true either as the combustion chamber uses a large quench area between the cylinders.
But Gordini and Hemi are the commonly used terms for it.
My car has some hill-climb and Auto-X history, the engine is fairly radical but in need of freshening after sitting for a long time.
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https://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/d/overland-park-lotus-europa-71/7307921685.html
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/pts/d/lawndale-lotus-europa-original-renault/7303765522.html
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Thanks for the clarification @Richard48Y.
And thanks for the links @Clifton. I spoke to the KC owner yesterday, but hadn't seen the LA car yet...
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I would jump on one of those!
I have about $8K into mine and it is still a major project.
And I suspect that recent paint may be more valuable than an engine rebuild these days.
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If, if (!), the paint is properly done. Had mine done, OMG it looked gorgeous. 3 months later the first stress crack started to show through under the clear coat.
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One thing you don't want to do as a novice is to get an S1. I almost bought one only to find out that certain parts are really hard to find and with fixed side windows, there is little circulation, especially on a hot day. Do your research and dig till you are comfortable with a pre determined purchase. I finally bought one after looking for a year and a half and will have a lot of work to do but hopefully it will be worth it when it is complete. Good luck