Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: garyp on Saturday,August 06, 2022, 07:46:43 AM
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Hi all:
My name is Gary Pollard and I am the new proud owner of a '74 TC Special, 4224R. I haven't actually seen the car as it is on a truck from California as I write this. It should arrive at my home in Wendell, NC sometime next week. I had some friends with Lotus experience look at it and was told that it is unmolested and runs well. It might need a clutch and definitely needs some work on the shift linkage to the 365 gearbox. I am looking forward to the challenge.
A little about me. By education I am an electrical engineer and by profession, a software engineer. I work for a large French company and am currently working applying artificial intelligence to energy management systems. I have had British cars for most of my life. When I was 17, I took my summer job earnings and bought a new MG Midget (my dad thought that a Pinto would have been safer). When I finished my education, I took a job in aerospace in Southern California and bought a very tired '51 Bentley to drive to work. Other than the perennial problems with rust, the car was completely reliable and I drove is as my only car for over 8 years. A friend's father sold a '62 Land Rover station wagon to me in a number of crates (I had to sweep the garage floor to get all of its parts). I rebuilt everything but the gearbox and front axle. The day I finished it, a friend and I drove it from LA to Raleigh, NC so that I could begin a new job, sort of a 2500 mile test drive. I drove it every day until to lure of air conditioning was too great and I bought a Honda. I have always admired the Europa and have been half-halfheartedly looking for one. I finally found what I wanted in LA, which brings this up to the present.
I am nearing retirement and will have time to do whatever is needed with the Europa. From reading the posts here, it looks as though I will not lack for help when I can't figure something out.
I have 2 questions for which I could use some help from the collected wisdom:
1. What size battery goes in a Europa? The car was sold without one - owner lent one to my friends for the inspection, but I will need one when the car arrives.
2. When placing the car on a 2-post lift, where can the car safely be supported.
Thanks for any help you can give,
Gary Pollard
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Hi Gary, welcome to the list and Europa ownership! I have a ‘73 TCS, fwiw. The car can fit a standard size battery. But some use those gel batteries whose name escapes me at the moment. You’ll get a few more suggestions from others.
Official jacking points are on the fiberglass body, which always makes me nervous. But it seems to work. They are just behind the front wheel arches and just in front of the rear wheel arches. Some use a width of plywood to spread the load. Depending on how thin your two post jack is, you might need 2x8 tracks to raise the car to drive it into position.
Using a floor jack, you need a pretty low profile one, start at the front crossmember, add jackstands to the frame at the lower wishbone. Rear, jack up at the transmission hoop, put jack stands under the Y legs of the rear frame.
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:Welcome: garyp!!
We live pretty close to each other! I'll be sending you a PM shortly.
Battery: The size called out in the workshop manual is obsolete. I've been using a 51R. Some use Odyssey PC680 (which is very small). Generally, if Miata sized battery is what you need for a regular lead/acid battery. Remember the hot post is on the right (thus the 'R' in 51R).
2 post lift: The jack points are behand the front wheels and in front of the rear wheels. Take advantage of the vertical parts of the body there for added stiffness. Some put a plank of wood between the two to spread the load which wouldn't be a bad idea but it occurs to me that the real issue is that there aren't that many bolts that attach the body on a TC. Don't take that as a reason to worry. You should be fine. Lots of people use 2 post lifts with these cars.
I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of your new baby!
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Odyssey, that’s what I was trying to remember.
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I should have a standard new member welcome post with this link (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1389.0). There are probably going to be a few other links that fit you personally but that goes to a very good starting point for links for information and vendors.
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***DELETIA***
I have 2 questions for which I could use some help from the collected wisdom:
1. What size battery goes in a Europa? The car was sold without one - owner lent one to my friends for the inspection, but I will need one when the car arrives.
2. When placing the car on a 2-post lift, where can the car safely be supported.
Thanks for any help you can give,
Gary Pollard
1: think you got a good answer above; I just measured the space next to the left gas tank where there is a molded space for it, and got one that fit between the holes in the fiberglass for the hold-down bracket. Not that critical; placement of the cables is though. I'd also add a ground cable 'cut off' switch so when you're not enjoying the ride, you remove the battery from the circuit...just in case...it is Lucas wiring, after all...;)
2. Rear of the front arches for the front, front of the rear arches for the rear. Suggestion to have a piece of wood on top of the lifting pad is a good idea. Jack stands, if you're working close to the ground and don't want to put it on a lift (there are a couple reasons why; I find it's easier to work on the brakes and such closer to the ground...) are a must.
Also, workshop, parts breakouts, and other documents of interest are available online at 2 locations: http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/index.htm which are mirrored at http://www.lotuseuropa.us/lotus-europa.com/manuals/index.htm Bookmark these two sites...they will help get acquainted with your new ride, and help work through whatever issues arise.
Welcome to the collective! Hope your journey with your new ride is filled with good experiences...oh, yeah, I'll echo that we look forward to pictures of your gal when she arrives!
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Thanks for the welcome and for the help. I'm really looking forward to being an active member of this forum.
Cheers,
Gary
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:Welcome:
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:Welcome:
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:Welcome: …and good luck
Love to see some photos when you get the chance
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:Welcome:
I also can't wait for pictures. I am into my 3rd year of Europa ownership. RD Enterprises is your best friend for parts. Looking forward to you sharing your Europa adventures.
Sandy
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Gary,
:Welcome:
A warm welcome here from sunny Florida . You mentioned your lure to A/C , does you car have it?
It was an option.
Dakazman
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No A/C on the Europa. I am hoping for some cooler weather soon.
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Gary ,
I'll be looking forward to seeing some pictures. Another link you may want to visit is your cars wiring diagrams, it's not Boolean algebra, but I'm sure you'll be saying some choice words when working on your baby. Some members, myself included have blown these diagrams up to 2'x3' posters for larger reference which does help.
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=752.0
dakazman
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:Welcome:
Looking forward to seeing some pics too.
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Welcome to the forum!
I have a lithium battery on my tcs and ac. I am very happy with the lithium battery.
I think the original battery location is very warm because it is on the exhaust side.
Anyway, this is my battery and it weighs just over 3 pounds. I used to have the Oddysey battery in the same location.
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Pfreen, you are far braver than I.
I would never have a Lithium battery anywhere near my S2, or any other car.
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It's an aircraft battery, so I don't think fire is an issue. Also, It is lithium iron, not the same as a Tesla battery, if that is what you are regerring to.
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Congrats on the Europa purchase, and welcome to the club. Your enablers are standing by. :beerchug:
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It's an aircraft battery, so I don't think fire is an issue. Also, It is lithium iron, not the same as a Tesla battery, if that is what you are regerring to.
I am curious as to that reference, as well. I've been seriously considering a lithium battery myself. Is there something I should know?
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Pfreen, what size EarthX battery do you use? Are there any charging or maintenance things one would need to know?
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I'm also interested in what size EarthX battery you chose and how it's working out.
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I have the Earthx etx680c. They also sell the battery holder.
It actually cranks the engine faster since the voltage is slightly higher and the internal resistance is lower than lead acid.
I have an 80 amp alternator because of my air conditioning. I made no modifications to the charging system.
I have had it for just over two years.
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I notice on EarthX's website that they recommend that the alternator should put out less than 60 amps. According to the video for that battery, there is overcharging protection but they warn that the battery is not at risk but the electronics that protect the battery from overcharging and undercharging. I guess since you've had it for a couple of years, you're safe.
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I know. I would follow their instructions, but I haven't had a problem. However, if the battery was flat, that may be another case.
I have a 80 amp alternator to keep up with the demand at low rpm.
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Overcharging lithiums is really, really bad. You may have the sense not to cross the line but who knows about the next owner? Then, of course, they will sue the battery company. Same as it ever was.
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Yes fire would be my worry.
I've seen how EV batteries are made and it is no surprise they spontaneously combust.
Glad to hear this version has less worry but I will play it super safe.
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I've seen how EV batteries are made and it is no surprise they spontaneously combust.
At the risk of thread drifting, why is that ? I've heard of fires in EVs but to be honest I've no idea what the risk is.
Brian
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Instead of one large large battery cell, or maybe a half dozen, they have hundreds or thousands.
And each individual cell has to be "Managed" when charging, or discharging, being shunted aside if failed, etc.
So many connections and an automotive environment are a recipe for failure.
The failures are spectacular and require special equipment to put out.
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Thanks, I've just realised how green (as in lack of knowledge, not tree hugging) I am in this area so I've just done some googling based on your comments.
Hmm, it does make you wonder, over in the UK EVs are being pushed hard and although I accept that petrol can explode/burn fires are generally rare and from what I can see are usually caused by electrical failures/ignition. So we might just be swapping one problem for another because there does seem to be an inherent risk involved.
I've no doubt it's safe now but in 10yrs time when the market is cut-throat for batteries you can imagine corners being cut and poor quality items on the market, a bit like some of the classic car replacements we have now.
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I would just say that these are FAA certified and they are not the same technology as used in electric vehicles.
Other than that, read the website, which has a lot of info, and decide for yourself.
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The EarthX batteries are lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP) batteries, which are inherently safer than other lithium ion battery chemistries. Plus they have an integrated battery management system that is designed to protect against over-charge and over-discharge situations. If you really screw up you might fry the battery management system, but it should still fail safely.
In general, of all of the lithium-ion cells that were tested, LiFePO4 would be considered the
safest cathode material because of the relatively low temperature rise and the resulting low
likelihood for thermal runaway to propagate.
https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf
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The car finally arrived - very late at night. The driver declined to drive down my dead-end street in the dark, so he delivered the car to the parking lot of a local supermarket. I left my everyday car there for the night and drove the Lotus the 5 miles home. It runs well, but the clutch disengages only at the last 1/8" of pedal travel. I am hopeful that this is an adjustment issue. If anyone has a suggestion, let me know. The shifter is so vague the I only located 3rd gear once. The brakes seem to stop the car well but there is a lot of pedal travel before you can feel any stopping power. I'm hoping that this is just some air in the system - I had the wheels off (22-year old tires had to go) and most of the brake parts looked brand new. Any thoughts on what to try first?
I am looking forward to getting help as I get the car to be a reliable daily transport.
Cheers,
Gary
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Nice looking Europa!
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Looks good.
My TCS has long spongy pedal travel but brakes still do their job. I've replaced the fluid and bled them but still the same, so no advice there. Mines UK so has single circuit brakes and a single servo, yours is probably dual circuit and twin serves.
Gear change. (I'm assuming a 5 speed 365 gearbox because that's what I have. I believe the later 4 speed used the same gear linkage with a shorter rear section, and the earlier 4 speeds on the TC used something significantly different)
First check holding the gear knob can you rotate it on it's axis at all? If you can it more than likely has worn "top hat" bushes at the base of the gear lever. These were originally plastic and disintegrate. Replace with brass or oilite equivalent. Details are on this site but it involves working in the centre tunnel through the oval access hole under the armrest. Prepare to bleed and use expletives!
Second (because this is next easiest) check the universal joint at the rear of the gear linkage where it joins to the selector shaft at the back if the gearbox is not worn, and that the split pin holding it to the selector shaft is tight - there should be no play.
Finally check that the joint between the front and rear sections of the gear linkage (attached to the left hand side of the clutch bell housing). This should have no axial rotation between the two sections and the bushing in the bracket mounted to the bell housing should also only allow for rotation on its axis (if its worn) you'll be able to move the joint between the front and rear linkage sections up and down vertically.
That'll do for now. There is a reverse and 5th detent mechanism on the rear of the gearbox whisk should be under a plastic cover that might need checking too. Its within the chassis hoop the rear of the gearbox mounts into. If you post a picture of the back of the gearbox from the back of the car below the rear bodywork then we should have a good idea if all looks correct.
Edit: OK re-read first post and see it is a 365 5 speed so all above is relevant
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I haven't dealt with the clutch yet. Someone else will chime in on that.
You probably have to rebuild the shifter linkage. It was one of my first projects when I got my '73 30 years ago.
Sounds like you need to bleed the brakes, which can be pretty hard to do on this car. I ended up with a system that pressurizes the master reservoir, then go around bleeding each corner. Do you still have brake boosters? They tend to fail and get removed from the system.
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The car is a 5-speednd still has its brake boosters. I ordered a supply of shifter repair parts from RD Enterprises today - they should arrive early next week and I can get to work on the linkage. I am assuming that I can pull the whole thing out the back of the car and work on most of at my workbench. Is that reasonable?
For pressurizing the brake system, any advice about how to go about it. I have a hand-pump pressure bleeder left over from a Volvo that I drove many years back, but the fittings are peculiar to the Volvo. I also have a Mighty-Vac pump that I can use to apply a vacuum to the bleeders and pull fluid out that way, I've just never tried it.
I'll report on progress. Thanks for the help.
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Gary, sweet ride! Love the colour. Looks like you don't have a lot of work to do to enjoy.
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It looks like a Special. They had "automatic" adjustors in the rear brakes that didn't work very well. Check there first.
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The car is a 5-speednd still has its brake boosters. I ordered a supply of shifter repair parts from RD Enterprises today - they should arrive early next week and I can get to work on the linkage. I am assuming that I can pull the whole thing out the back of the car and work on most of at my workbench. Is that reasonable?
For pressurizing the brake system, any advice about how to go about it. I have a hand-pump pressure bleeder left over from a Volvo that I drove many years back, but the fittings are peculiar to the Volvo. I also have a Mighty-Vac pump that I can use to apply a vacuum to the bleeders and pull fluid out that way, I've just never tried it.
I'll report on progress. Thanks for the help.
My sugestion...look up the Gunson Pressure Bleeder kit. fill the bottle with fluid, screw one hose with adapter on the top of the master, other hose gets connected to a spare tire set for about 20 lbs. Never had good luck with mitivacs...the Gunson (you can get it at Moss) made a PITA job take about 20 minutes once I had the car on jacks and the wheels off.
If you're handy, you may want to investigate a bunch of threads on eliminating the boosters; it's only a 1500 lb car and the brakes, when adjusted properly, work just fine unboosted. Lots of posts here about how to do it. If you do eliminate the boosters...you may want to get a smaller dual master (.75 seems to be the ticket). Word of advice...when bleeding, you go from the furthest to the closest...eliminating the boosters...the furthest ends up being front driver, then front passenger, then rear passenger, then rear driver. Seems strange...but if you follow the piping (which goes from the master in front to the rear then back forward...so the longest run is the wheel next to the master!) you'll get it. Just one of those "Lotus things"...lol.
+1 on going through the shift; best bang for the buck are the oilite tophat bushings at the bottom of the shift lever. It IS a frustrating job; easiest way is to pull the rear universal, release the intermediate pivot, and pull back to where you can get to the lever through the oval hole under the center tunnel arm pad. If you're going to pull and rebuild the entire setup...then just pull the whole frightful mechanism out the back and work on the bench. Luckily mine only needed the shift bushings done; there is a little wear in the intermediate heim joint, but not enough for me to worry about right now, and the universals are tight...so I didn't bother with them.
Congrats on the new addition; it's nice to see another one turning a wheel.
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Gary,
The Europa looks in good shape, and a rare find in Mint Green (L29).
My first thought would be to address the brakes. If the boosters are suspect, I would get rid of them all together. Change all the fluids then tackle the sloppy shifter.
Good luck and enjoy the ride.
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I use a gunsons eezibleed from my mini days in the 80's. This uses a wheel with the pressure dropped to 10psi to pressure the master cylinder so you just need to crack open the bleed screws.
You can't get gear linkage out with the engine in (well I couldn't). I didn't need to seperate the front and rear sections (they are loctite and roll pinned together). If you disconnect the linkage from selector shaft at the back of the gearbox - extract a roll pin (I had to make a tool because of access issues
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=4631.0 (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=4631.0). Then disconnect from the bell housing (the vertical bolt that passes through the bush). Finally remove centre console (as the Haynes manual would say!) and the four nuts holding the gearshift mount (after removing the gear knob) and you can lower the gear lever into the centre tunnel. You can then manipulate the gear lever back and replace the bolt/top hats at the base of the lever through the access hole where the armrest was. I suggest you tape the gear lever at the start as it can be "interesting" getting it into a position you can work on it (and getting it back).
Typing this while you got the replies, including another Eezibleed recommendation!
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The car finally arrived - very late at night. The driver declined to drive down my dead-end street in the dark, so he delivered the car to the parking lot of a local supermarket. I left my everyday car there for the night and drove the Lotus the 5 miles home. It runs well, but the clutch disengages only at the last 1/8" of pedal travel. I am hopeful that this is an adjustment issue. If anyone has a suggestion, let me know. The shifter is so vague the I only located 3rd gear once. The brakes seem to stop the car well but there is a lot of pedal travel before you can feel any stopping power. I'm hoping that this is just some air in the system - I had the wheels off (22-year old tires had to go) and most of the brake parts looked brand new. Any thoughts on what to try first?
I am looking forward to getting help as I get the car to be a reliable daily transport.
Cheers,
f
Gary
Gary , you had me laughing at 22 year old tires . as Lou says mint Green is rare but am going to put my foot down before BDA says, WHERE IS THE ASHTRAY? you'll get the pun in a few years. wait, I think that is someone else but since I can't remember shit because I'm retired and like to joke around.
Good find.
Dakazman
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Ok, Gary, did you get a good ashtray?! :D
I’m glad you finally got your baby! She looks good from your pictures.
Clutch adjustment is very simple. The end of the cable has two nuts. Loosen the last one, get the clutch adjusted, and then tighten the two nuts together so they don’t loosen.
I agree with Lou, unless you have reason to believe they’re ok, the boosters are suspect. Very suspect if they are the original Girling units and haven’t been rebuilt. A bit less suspect if they are rebuilt original Girling units, and could very well be good if they were replaced with Lockheed units. It’s common to delete them and replace the master cylinder with a smaller one. Just to be counted, I have a standard replacement M/C with Lockheed boosters and I’m very happy with my brakes. When bleeding brakes, remember to start at the wheel furthest from the M/C. On a US Europa, that is the passenger front wheel.
The Gunson pressure bleeder looks like a good unit and one of the things that makes it good is that from the pictures I’ve seen, it looks like they have the proper cap for the standard brake reservoir. I have a Motive Products pressure bleeder. They offer a huge selection of adapters to fit most M/Cs but it wasn’t huge enough from my M/C. I didn’t think there was anything at all unique about the original reservoir cap! I happened to have a M/C reservoir cap from the original M/C and I was able to make an adapter with it.
I have nothing to add about the tranny linkage.
Keep us informed of your progress and don’t be shy about asking for help!
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Very nice looking Europa, Gary. LOVE the colour. All around seems quite tidy. A few niggling issues is par for the course. Good luck getting things sorted, and getting out on the road. Cheers.
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I concur on not using the boosters. I’m still using the original master cylinder and the brakes work fine. I never drove mine with boosters, so I can’t really compare. I installed speed bleeders. They worked great and are perfect for a one person garage.