Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Off Topic Subjects => Topic started by: dakazman on Wednesday,December 28, 2022, 06:21:44 PM
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After sanding out slot of chemical stripper damage and repairing some cracks it’s time to experiment with this new synthetic veil. See pics 3-5 . Available from fibreglas.com, item 1851c , I ordered the 5 yard length.
Details are on the site , but the object here is to stop the bleed thru of the loose strands and add a better impact resistants.
I covered a spare bonnet with ease , fabric is .01 inch thick and stretches easily when wetted out, so a lot of dabbing instead of rolling. I used polyester resin but can be used with epoxy. It’s also very flexible.
I’ll put this on the fast track for sanding and priming as some of my paint is approaching expiration.
Time will tell .
Dakazman
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That stuff looks good, Dave, and much easier to handle than the more common wispy continuous filament veil.
Looking at your third pic, have you tried fibreglass reinforced filler yet?
It's magic stuff for those sorts of issues.
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This company, 1581-C?
https://www.fibreglast.com/product/synthetic-surfacing-veil-1581/Surfacing_Veils (https://www.fibreglast.com/product/synthetic-surfacing-veil-1581/Surfacing_Veils)
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This company, 1581-C?
https://www.fibreglast.com/product/synthetic-surfacing-veil-1581/Surfacing_Veils (https://www.fibreglast.com/product/synthetic-surfacing-veil-1581/Surfacing_Veils)
That’s the place. Richard.
GavinT
I’ll give it a go
Dakazman
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Ooops . . I meant to say 4th pic.
See . . they didn't even grind out the divot – just whacked in some bog and carried on with their day.
After 50 odd years, it's clear there was little attention paid to what would be considered best practice today.
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Correct Gavin,
That’s some of the things people slap together. That’s all the more reason to strip paint off completely.
I also repaired a door with severe stress cracks all with mat glass fiber. I stay away from the canned body putty mixes . I just couldn’t take it hanging around my garage without making it useful.
It was a great way to fill some time in, and using up products. This one will be coated in the stranded veil.
Dakazman
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Okay, I’m calling this a failed test .
One not that I forgot to add a contrast agent so that I absolutely knew when I was sanding off the resin that the veil was untouched. ADD A CONTRAST AGENT. I will bring that up with fibreglas.com maybe to add a color to the fabric.
I work on the visible air pockets that I didn’t sand off the veil .
I have another piece, a door but it still needs more work just to get to veil status. 😂🥱
Stayed tuned,
Dakazman
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Just recently veiled almost every surface on my TCS. Repaired bad locations first as you are... pinholes, voids, soda blasted pits, etc... . I did find that less resin is best. Used to much resin on my first veil attempt, the hood and I paid for it with a lot of sanding to get a smooth and even finish prior to high build primer. I found that using peel ply helped minimized sanding and resulted in a much smoother surface. The engine hatch, fenders, doors and rear quarters were all much easier to finish prior to primer. Peel ply is another step but for me was worth the time as it reduced my sanding/finishing time. Best of luck.
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Okay, I’m calling this a failed test .
One not that I forgot to add a contrast agent so that I absolutely knew when I was sanding off the resin that the veil was untouched. ADD A CONTRAST AGENT. I will bring that up with fibreglas.com maybe to add a color to the fabric.
I work on the visible air pockets that I didn’t sand off the veil .
G'day, Dave,
This isn't a failed test; you've learned something. ;)
A contrast agent sounds like a good idea to me but I wouldn't be taking FibreGlast to task.
These veils are intended to be used as the outermost layer for the production of an in-mould composite part and not for glueing to the exterior of an already existing laminate as we are doing.
You and I are using these products out of spec – link below.
http://www.fiberglassfiberlink.com/assets/v1-v2-fiberglass-surfacing-veils.pdf
And you've highlighted a point that always bothered me. Given that veil is so thin, how is it possible in the real world to avoid sanding through the veil while also looking to achieve a decent surface. To me, those are the competing objectives.
Are you referring to those white spots on the bonnet as "visible air pockets? or are they high spots.
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Hi, Kram,
I agree less resin is best. As an experiment, I thinned down the resin with acetone and that worked OK. I still found it laborious to eliminate air bubbles because a fin roller kinda skips over the hard surface. I haven't tried one of those 'bristle' rollers, but that may be better.
Another experiment is going to be applying veil with spray polyester filler like Slick Sand instead of standard polyester resin.
In my mind (always dangerous), I can see that as a more amenable product for achieving a suitable sanded surface and perhaps doesn't lack much in terms of discouraging the print through of micro-cracks and other small defects because the veil remains intact.
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[deletia]
And you've highlighted a point that always bothered me. Given that veil is so thin, how is it possible in the real world to avoid sanding through the veil while also looking to achieve a decent surface. To me, those are the competing objectives.
I'm no expert and my fiberglassing job may have exceeded my skill level but I considered the veil as sort of a "carrier" or holder for resin (with the veil providing some tensile strength to protect against future cracks). So, in a way, I considered it sort of a replacement for gel coat. When I sanded the veil after the resin cured I used pretty fine paper (I don't remember what grit I started with) on a dual action orbital sander. As such, my aim was to sand the resin rather than the veil. I didn't do anything to thin the resin. In fact as long as it was thin enough to spread with a brush (probably not very thin) and wasn't in danger of kicking, I was fine with it. I used the brush to stipple the veil/resin to smooth it and get rid of any bubbles.
I have to admit that I did all this over twenty years ago so my memory of my theory of what I thought was doing could be better than my memory of how I actually did it.
After over twenty years, it still looks good though very close examination reveals some very minor imperfections that I don't believe were there in the raw fiberglass when I gave the car to the paint shop. I have no explanation of how they got there and could be the result of my lack of understanding fiberglassing.
So my question is , "Does my theory that the veil is to a great extent a carrier or holder of resin make any sense? Or am I off base and I should be glad it looks as good as it does?"
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Gavin, not a failure with material but rather my procedure. This is appropriate for topical adhesion. see data sheet. The wet thru was extremely fast causing the air pockets. usually come out when poked with a paint brush however the veil seemed to dense to puncture, even afterwards tried poking with a needle , no help. they are in the lower glass fibers.
I can now see the difference in layers , the veil looks blurry or cloudy if you get close. I wrote to the company about a different color or maybe adding a tracer line throughout the veil.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.fibreglast.com/downloads/00430.pdf
Kram , I pulled up the peel ply product , very interesting and definitely a time saver according to the video online at fibreglast.
BDA, finding hairline cracks with the naked eye is very difficult. water gets in and if your in a cold climate will slowly lift and get deeper.
Dakazman
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Just posting some pics of the composite veil and what it looks like. I will be comparing it to the continuous strand .
I also coated a defroster grille that I’m fabricating , it worked well and I’m getting use to working with it.
Dakazman
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This is appropriate for topical adhesion. see data sheet.
Dave,
Nowhere does it mention the words "topical adhesion".
The Fibre Glast data sheet says:
"Adding a polyester surface veil ensures superior impact strength while acting as an exceptional cosmetic print blocker. Use this veil as a surfacing layer on laminations to extend the life of your materials".
It's perhaps a matter of interpretation but I'd suggest they're promoting the 'inclusion' of a surfacing veil during the process of laying up the laminate i.e the originating wet process.
I don't believe they're suggesting a subsequent process of adding veil onto an already cured laminate.
Owens Corning, an actual manufacturer of various veils, says much the same thing. They talk about veils in terms of being "used in a variety of composite manufacturing processes". From my research, all manufacturers say similar things.
https://www.pressreleasefinder.com/prdocs/2003/Product_Information.pdf
I'm not looking to be 'that guy' and would love to be wrong on this.
Do Fibre Glast have a recommended procedure for applying veil to an already cured laminate as we are doing?
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So my question is , "Does my theory that the veil is to a great extent a carrier or holder of resin make any sense? Or am I off base and I should be glad it looks as good as it does?"
Tricky question, BDA and I'm no expert either.
I don't think your theory can be easily refuted but the overarching question from this devil's advocate might be; "to what extent does adding a resin rich layer with the claimed minimal reinforcement properties of veil benefit the laminate structure overall".
The answer might be; "just enough to mitigate a good number of the hitherto unseen micro-cracks even though we accidentally sanded through the veil in some places".
An alternate answer might be; "provided the veil remains intact and does the intended job, the minimal addition of resin is of insignificant detriment compared to the overall benefit to the laminate as a whole".
I reckon either way could be argued.
That probably explains why it bothers me . . but I use veil anyway.
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This is appropriate for topical adhesion. see data sheet.
Dave,
Nowhere does it mention the words "topical adhesion".
The Fibre Glast data sheet says:
"Adding a polyester surface veil ensures superior impact strength while acting as an exceptional cosmetic print blocker. Use this veil as a surfacing layer on laminations to extend the life of your materials".
It's perhaps a matter of interpretation but I'd suggest they're promoting the 'inclusion' of a surfacing veil during the process of laying up the laminate i.e the originating wet process.
I don't believe they're suggesting a subsequent process of adding veil onto an already cured laminate.
Owens Corning, an actual manufacturer of various veils, says much the same thing. They talk about veils in terms of being "used in a variety of composite manufacturing processes". From my research, all manufacturers say similar things.
https://www.pressreleasefinder.com/prdocs/2003/Product_Information.pdf
I'm not looking to be 'that guy' and would love to be wrong on this.
Do Fibre Glast have a recommended procedure for applying veil to an already cured laminate as we are doing?
Gavin , Thank you first of all .
I post all these concerns to them. I jumped the gun so to speak, I watch their video and they mention laying up “next to “your laminate.
I have asked about a tracer or a contrast agent, no word back yet .
I did put in another order for some 60”regular Matt and some peel ply. I’m basically just playing around with these panels that we’re headed for a dumpster. Well they are far from dumpster quality now with just running thru initial repairs.
My objective is to get them into a primer state before my paint expires.
BDA,About tensile strength…, I did a very non scientific test with a dynamometer, pulling a piece of the composite saturated with one coat of resin . Poking a hole thru the single layer I achieved a 18n or 1.8 grams. Which is about equal to a single thin rubber band. It surprised me when I tried to pull apart by hand though.
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If I understand your tests, D'man, I'm not surprised. Tensile strength should be a lot stronger than resistance to poking through. That's part of the idea - to provide tensile strength to a substrate that lacks it.
I agree with Gavin's answer to his question "to what extent does adding a resin rich layer with the claimed minimal reinforcement properties of veil benefit the laminate structure overall"
that there is enough to suppress the formation of spider and star cracks. Obviously veil will not lend much strength to the underlying structure but there is enough tensile strength to prevent (most of) them. I also think it can help fill very minor imperfections in the underlying surface (previously mentioned minor imperfections noted in my car notwithstanding).
Somewhere I got the idea that prepreg veil might be part of the conversation. Is it? I would think that would be very difficult to manipulate!
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After working with the composite veil I’ve found it nearly bulletproof. Sanding with 120g normally would cut through glass fiber easily, not so with this polyester. So I went back to to data sheet it says abrasion resistance, absolutely passed this test .
https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.fibreglast.com/downloads/00430.pdf
Explaining polyester, https://youtu.be/XuEqieNcfac
Here are a few pictures of hairline cracks. Showing the importance of sanding the paint off completely on both sides and holding up to a light, in this case the sun. Adding the veil can probably save a paint job , these still need to be addressed before covering.
The hairline cracks start to chip out when the lines get close to each other, not to mention what freezing water does to them.
Fiberglass and bondo to fill a crack, no way, see pic .
Dakazman
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BDA,
Here is my next test of continuous strand 260H veil from fibreglas, that I'll be using. It does not have add any tensile strength, but does improve appearance. that is probably what you used back when. I agree that some type of covering must be used and that is what this thread is about. We have a problem with deterioration, strand separation, etc.
This test will be on a door and not a panel that water lays on, the sides of the car don't seem to have the same problems as the top sections .I'll be using it on the doors. After seeing how strong the composite veil was I may add it to the door jamb area that suffers a lot of abuse from the hinge area.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.fibreglast.com/downloads/00092.pdf
Dakazman
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I think of using veil for protecting against surface cracks forming and to provide a good smooth finish. Those aren’t problems you find in the door jamb so I’d tend to limit using veil to external surfaces.
When I said I was no expert, I meant it! :) I got my veil from r.d. I got my mat and resin from Lowes. The discussion about synthetic and continuous strand veil etc. is really beyond me!
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Not looking forward to this part of my project..... :-\
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Relax, Turbo! I did some reconstruction on my car as well as some modifications and nothing has fallen off yet! There is science to it but I was able to do my work without knowing it. There are a few simple tricks but it’s very simple and forgiving. I enjoyed the fiberglass work I did on my car. The worst part is how itchy you get.
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I did it again, I mentioned door jamb area. Thinking about the door pins and damage that occurs on the inner door area when things go wrong when doors start hanging down .I’m no expert either Gavin but just stating my experience. I’ll post pics of the 3 doors and the locations of the damaged areas.
BDA and turbo, let me pass on one good thing about trying to sand down this composite veil is that it’s polyester and not itchy. The continuous probably is itchy because it’s glass . It is tedious, so I jump from cutting and beveling out on a few pieces to layup on others then back to inspecting and grinding or drilling. That way if you mix up to much resin you can touch up things you missed on another panel or area.
Tomorrow I plan on painting some clear coat on my bonnet, I was waiting for the perfect day when the weather was perfect. It’s the second coat after sanding out some shrinkage.
Dakazman ,
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Appreciate your candor, Dave. - we're all learning.
I'm liking that polyester veil.
My trouble is I have the vast remains of a 100 metre roll of 80 gsm continuous filament veil that I really should use up . . decisions, decisions.
Here are a few pictures of hairline cracks. Showing the importance of sanding the paint off completely on both sides and holding up to a light, in this case the sun.
Absolutely . . . and it's why I'm a fan of sand blasting.
I suspect people think I'm mad for doing that but are too polite to say so. ;)
For those interested, below is a pic showing the use of a light woven fabric which fixes surface cracking just fine but also prints through the final paint job . . we live and learn.
In the lower middle of the pic is an area of cracking that was missed and thus, not treated.
My updated repair procedure for these non-structural cracks is to grind them out to the customary saucer shape and fill with 'Kitty Hair'.
Evercoat do a variety of these reinforced fillers. I've only used the heavier duty 'Kitty Hair' variety but might try the lighter 'Glass-Lite' product.
EVERCOAT Fiber Reinforced Fillers & applications YouTube video.
https://youtu.be/tY3E0ztz8SY
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For those interested, below is a pic showing the use of a light woven fabric which fixes surface cracking just fine but also prints through the final paint job . . we live and learn.
Been there, done that... well had it done... Back when my car was "new", as part of an accident repair, I had a guy cover the whole car with fine cloth on the theory that future crashes would be easier to fix if all the pieces were recovered and cloth would help keep the pieces attached to the car. Ignoring for the moment the psychology of planning for the next accident, we found that there was nothing that would get rid off the cloth printing. I suspect that covering the cloth with veil might have worked but I didn't try it (it didn't look like the guy covered the doors, boot, or bonnets with cloth - the parts I covered with veil.
The cloth printing is not obtrusive but it's still there. Live and learn indeed! It is never a good idea to use cloth where a nice finish is desired!
If you don't itch when sanding the synthetic mat or veil, that's a great reason to use it!
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I worked on a few more pieces today using up what I have laying around. The repaired panels are not ready for the veil yet. The composite veil is showing great promise, after cutting out all the void’s below the fabric. I put my resin glass slurry to work filling the holes Thinking about another layer of the composite but slowly rolled onto the surface underneath.
I had a little 4-1 high gloss clear coat to use up so as previously mentioned the bonnet was sanded down with 800 grit , not penetrating thru the clear but just removing the fabric strands that showed through after being shrunk-wrap by the clear a year later. I’ll post more pics after nibbing out and polishing up.
Happy with the renewed surface but I can’t say how long it will stay perfect.
Dakazman
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That makes a whole lot more sense. With your talking about the synthetic veil, I thought you were going to shoot clear on it for some reason :-X
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Disappointed to find this, "Binder is not compatible with any epoxy. PLEASE NOTE: It should be used with polyester or vinyl ester resin only".
Just put in a large order but had to go with the other veil.
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Good point Rich, Glad you caught that. So you went with the composite over the continuous strand?
If using epoxy resins, have you had a problem with the finish? Why use veil at all ? I don’t use epoxy at all , that’s why I’m asking.
Dakazman
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I will know once the supplies arrive and the weather warms.
My intent is an epoxy and veil final outer layer in the hope of preventing future spider cracks.
Maybe I should mention I also sprang for vacuum bagging supplies?
Years ago I worked at Omohundro spars as the Mast-Head specialist.
Sailors may be familiar with the company.
That job provided a lot of experience working with Carbon Fiber and lamination/repair technique.
CF and 'Glass are similar enough to be worked almost identically for our purposes.
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Okay, now I understand. We’re working on the same problem with different techniques , the epoxy is definitely stronger method.
Dakazman
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The last of the three doors and an engine cover , now ready for primer. I still have 1/2 gallons to use up. This will all most be the last glass project except for a bonnet as I mentioned before.
One little job before that is to finish installation of my carbs . It’s very tedious! I did place the carbs into the cavity but need to secure in place . Just giving you all a perspective.
The highlight for today was a friend of mine returning with a friend.
Dakazman
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I realized I put some veil projects on my ,”downtime” thread but bear with me . The bonnet with all the defects were coated with composite veil and primed . What a difference in first coats. Much cleaner with no pinholes. The bonnet was duplicated, I covered the bonnet in plastic and covered it with the composite veil making a cover, then removed and trimmed. Secondly, reattached to the bonnet to add the sides. After drying I removed the bonnet. Next, flipping it over and building up the sides with Matt .
Keeping the contour was tricky with only the composite veil hold the flex.
Then added a full sheet to the inside today.
It’s still much lighter than the original with only the rounded lip on the underside and a cross brace to go. Cut the bobbins but still need to form and drill.
This will be the experimental version, with the repaired one being a JPS livery.
Dakazman
Dakazman
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These pieces are now much easier to look at hanging from my ceiling. I’ll break them out and finish when I get some spare supplies. Bonnet and boot both covered in composite veil, Doors are mixed.
Dakazman
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Looks great, D'man!! :beerchug:
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Thanks BDA ,
I missed this photo! One other door going up un- primed after I sand it out a bit more. Combining tasks makes life easier.
Dakazman
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Nice work!
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It will be a while before this test can be completed. Ill bake these parts if the hot Florida sun to bake off. Afterwards I'll paint and clearcoat.
sand and polish up and WAIT for the results. The JPS bonnet is painted but not cleared yet. making my stencil is time consuming.
Dakazman
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Question dakazman: How do you paint (base coat I presume) and then not clear within the allotted open time?
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Kram,
In short, I use the repair blending procedures. Apply 1 coat of 222S™ Midcoat Adhesion Promoter over the entire repair area.
then I'm spraying another basecoat of a different color, Black over gold.. then repeat the promoter and spray clear.
repairing a same color panel is very difficult to buff out without a blend line. some people can cut it just right but I'm not that good or patient.
I'm using CHROMAPREMIER® BASECOAT (F) G9900 super jet black.
Dakazman
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This seems to be the proper thread, it will be the final painting on the composite veil bonnet.
I’m adding a JPS insignia to the panel. It’s been a PIA but I worked through many of the problems.
Layout and doing an initial cutout all most complete, but it’s been a time sucker and is just sn experiment. Hopefully I’ll see an improvement in the final finish.
Dakazman