Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: califkid_66 on Tuesday,December 11, 2018, 10:26:46 AM
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I see a lot of Europa owners rebuilding
their engines to gordini specs
I would really like to know what they are
1 . compression ratio
2. Cam duration at .50 thou
3. cam lobe lift
4. power curve on distributor without vacuum
5. Twin carb size venturies and jetting
I was told i have to change my pistons
My cam and my distributor and my carbs
My engine is a 807 from r17 us model and suppose
to have 10.5 to 1 compression my head is not the fuel
injected one but a port and polished gordini head my carbs are 45 dell
should be webers 40 according to what i heard
Im no expert but my base as been rebuilt and to
I don’t see why i need to change all these parts and rebuild
when everything is in very good condition i would
just like to compare specs maybe i just need to detune my carbs
I just want it to be drivable
Thank for your comment s and help ps im planning to keep
This europa forever
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What is your complete engine number, 807-??
Any idea of the history of your engine? At least some mods have been done if you have Dells on it. Does it have solid intake manifolds with o-ring carb mounts, or, the style with the large rubber insulators?
There is no single "Gordini" spec. Various 807 engines were fitted to everything from R8s to Alpines. HP ratings vary from 84 (1565, 9:1, 2bbl downdraft, basic R16TS) to 170+ (1800cc full rally spec) with street drivability and MTBF varying inversely as well. You can build a nice, reliable, 140 hp engine, no problem.
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Here are the details i removed the head to see what was inside
At first i thought it was a fuego case the plate had A7L on it but
Its a mixture of parts i was told it was an 807 hybrid!
1 aluminium block from fuego
2 all internals crank rods liners pistons cam all come from r17 us model
3 the head is not from the r17 its a gordini crossflow ported and polished
4 carbs are dells 45 with 38 venturies the manifolds are solid mount with o rings
5 distributor is from fuego wich only as a rotor in it cause fuego had a remote ignition and vacuum
I have a trigger for spark its an aluminium pulley with 2 magnets on the camshaft
I can post pictures if you want
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I brought my head cause i wanted to get
a head gasket to reassemble my engine i showed
the head and the picture of my block this is when i found
out what i had
1565 77
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Those are 9.x:1 pistons. All the 697/821/807/843 blocks are alloy and "roughly" the same (different cylinder fitment but that can be machined). Heads vary with different porting and valve sizes. Early US FI heads are actually pretty good but they got smaller ports and valves as time went on. Not sure about the ignition, stock programming will be not be ideal. Intake manifolds are aftermarket not original. Not an issue as long as the carbs are secured correctly (not too tight).
Earlier Renault Gordinis had engines designed and built by "the Master". By the time the 807 came along, Gordini and Alpine were owned by Renault and functioned as Renault's race shop. Gordini was good with the poor stuff they used to put out in the 40s and 50s but he was entirely self-taught and couldn't keep up when tuning became more and more scientific. Let's just say he had some down-right weird ideas.
All that to say that Gordini had nothing to do with the 807 engines -- a good thing -- and the higher spec engines were called "Gordinis" as an honorific.
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I was told by michel at alpine America
That all the internals from my block came from r17 us
He said it was 807 not sure if he said 807-13
I did some research and the only 807 us
as 10.5 to 1 pistons and 1565 cc and measured
My gasket 77 the head is not original
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The 807-13 spec changed over time. Compression lowered, rods went from full-floating to pressed, valve sizes became smaller, etc. My 807-13 came from a '74 R17G. It had large valves and ports but 20mm press-fit rods. Pistons were 9.x:1 and looked like yours. I fit euro-spec 10.25:1 pistons (much more pronounced "bump").
Here's a thread that goes into great detail but sadly never was completed:
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1748.0
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Is there a way to know wich connecting rods
I have without taking everything apart
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The 21mm full floating piston pins are retained by circlips. The 20mm press fit have none. You would have to lift a sleeve and look.
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Rods and pistons are available. Usually cams have to be reground. I only know of one (expensive) supplier of new cams.
What is it that you want?
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Actually i just wanted to put this engine in the Europa
as is i mean all the parts are in good condition i just wanted to
know what i had
when i went to try to get my gasket i was told you should put
it to gordini specs then i was told change the pistons 1000$
then put another cam that they make from a blank ?$ and bring
a distributor so it can be modified to specs 500$ if conrods are the
wrong one you have to change them and then reassembly if all the other parts are to spec
I just wanted a head gasket !! i mean if the base is stock there must be a way
to run this engine with the gordini head i think my only problem would be to detune
the carbs and install a distributor with the right power curve
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Of course you can run the engine mostly as is!
Couple of questions.
Has this engine run before?
Or, are swapping in a different head?
When you removed the head, did you lift it up, or, swing it sideways?
Have you turned over the engine with the head off?
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To answer your questions im not sure
But here’s what i noticed and saw
I turned over the engine by hand when it was assembled turned over nicely when i removed the carbs there was no sign of any fuel or smell of fuel they seemed to have been rebuilt maybe as winter project
I did not do a compression test but a leak down with a cheap hb gage wich was defective but noticed
i had an exhaust leak in one cylinder and a intake leak in another
When i unbolted the head i followed the sequence in reverse and the head just came of i know you’re not supposed to lift it but twist it was not stuck the sleeves did not move
i checked the valves there was a little carbon on it and i moved them and they didn’t leak anymore
The head gasket was not new it showed signs of a running engine
It showed signs of a little overheating in two cylinders nothing drastic
Was told probably the ignition system wich use an aluminium pulley with magnets on the camshaft
Wich was not set up properly
I did no turn the engine after disassembly did not want to disturb the liners i noticed that there was a bead of something at the bottom of the liners and that’s it
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Ok, in theory you can just put in a new head gasket and bolt it all back together. If the original engine builder did things properly, it will all just work fine.
What would I do?
I have been burned so many times by supposedly "refreshed", "overhauled" and "rebuilt" engines that I would (at the least):
- pull the pan and check the crank bearings and crank endplay (the engine is out so this is easily done).
That's good? If this is an 807 block, then:
- pull the liners (a pain I know), clean up the block liner seat, and go through the procedure to fit new liner seals
- since it's apart carefully check the piston clearance and ring gaps (do that before setting up the liners)
- if it is an 843 block (o-ring liner seals), I might be tempted to leave the liners as is... might... forget that, I would pull them and double check as well.
- have the valves and valve seats professionally resurfaced*
- bolt it all back together knowing you now have a basically sound engine
- toss the weird ignition system and fit a conventional distributor
Ideally I would change to 40mm carbs but run what you have at first and see how it goes.
* So many people just lap in new valves and end up with nasty, wide, short-lasting seats. Do it right and they will last a long, long time.
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Thank you so much i will follow your advice
I will also get my head checked out to make sure it is not warped
my block is not 843 so it as the paper or plastic gaskets and
like i said it’s not the original head the other one was fuel injected
My first idea was to try to run this engine as is but i was missing
the ignition system and i had an exhaust valve leak i thought it was a
burnt valve at first that’s one of the reasons i removed the head
so im gonna follow your advice check all parts reassemble properly
And try to run it
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I had my 843 rebuilt to Gordini specs at Alpine America. 10.5 compression pistons, cam ground from new blank, ported,polished head and special distributor, regulator etc etc. 150+ hp.
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Very nice! Would you be willing to ball park on the cost?
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If someone has had their engine rebuilt it would be nice
To have a little info on their engines
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I’m still waiting for parts so I don’t have a final price yet. Michel didn’t give me a complete spect sheet. Says it’s built to the A110 Gordini spects. I’ll know more later.
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Thanks i know he said he recommended 40s carbs for
His build so im trying to figure out my carbs i have 45s and your engine is
Bigger than mine i believe you have 843
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Yes I have the 843. Michel recomended the 40’s. I haven’t gotten the carb settings from him yet
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I noticed some numbers on my pistons but this is confusing me they don’t make sense
I was told 1565 77mm but on pistons its 79 also a 23 and 00 im starting to think i
have a 1647 79 mm here’s the picture
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Measure them across the skirt, perpendicular to the piston pin and then you will know.
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measured my liners today 79 mm
that means it’s not a 1565
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1647 cc
Probably an 843. Will have o-rings sealing the liners and no need to set liner height.
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yes that’s what i thought
Now the only thing im not sure about is if i remove the cam i read somewhere you have to degree it and the videos i saw they said use your cam card so im not sure how to go about that the rest i pretty much understand
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There is a procedure for installing the cam, timing chain and gears correctly in the manual. That is all you require for a street engine.
Racing is another matter and benefits can be gained by setting up the camshaft's timing precisely. First you have to have specs for your cam. Then you need to have some way of adjusting the cam to different positions. You can machine different keyways into the cam sprocket, make up offset woodruff keys or make a custom adjustable sprocket. Now you can partially assemble the engine and use a dial gauge and degree wheel to figure out what you have. Adjust as needed.
The trick is knowing what it is needed!
I advanced the cam 2° on a tricked-out Ducati single using offset woodruff keys. On my Europa, only mildly-modded, I just put it together as per the manual.