Author Topic: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES  (Read 4134 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lotus 47

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Joined: Sep 2016
  • Location: Melbourne Australia
  • Posts: 92
RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« on: Sunday,October 23, 2016, 02:30:38 PM »
I'm not sure where to start!

Maybe from the beginning!

I purchased my ratty 1970 S2 Europa in Sept 1987. 7004100119Q - an Australian delivered car that was originally fitted with a 1470cc 697-04 engine. When I got the car it was fitted with a standard 1565cc 807-01 R16TS engine. These engines were plentiful in the 1970's, 80's & 90's because Renault had an assembly plant in my home town of Melbourne.

The installation in my car used a stock R16TS cast iron exhaust manifold and twin throat down draught Weber. The chassis top flange was bent out of the way to clear the exhaust manifold, and a very crude air cleaner sat atop the Weber

On paper there seems little point in swapping the engines. The Europa engine is 82hp, the R16TS is 83hp. However the 16TS engine is the basis of the A110 1600S engine (138hp) that was a huge success in rallying, and also power the R17TS and R12 Gordini engines that were rated at 125hp.

All this horsepower came from a fabulous  cross flow head reputedly designed by Monsieur Amedee Gordini. The bottom end was unburstable, and the lightweight alloy block is a lesson in simplicity.

I've built a few Alfa 105 engines over the years and while their heads are fab (if you can get them off!), the bottom ends and front timing chain area is overly complex and an absolute prick to work on when it is installed in the car. Removing the water pump is a classic example. And don't get me started on removing the engine. Almost as frustrating as an Elan!

So my starting point was a standard R16TS engine.

While I talk in horsepower I measure in millimeters. After all it is a French engine, and in Australia we converted to the metric system in 1974

COMPONENT                           697-04          807-01

Cylinder head                   Non Cross-flow   Cross-flow
Power                                       82hp           83hp
Capacity                                   1470cc       1565cc
Compression ratio                    10.25          8.6
Bore                                         76mm         77mm       
Stroke                                      84mm         84mm
Bore spacing                            89mm         89mm
Bore sleeve step size (early)    82mm          82.5mm
Bore sleeve step size (late)      82.5mm      82.5mm
Inlet valve size                         37.5            40mm
Exhaust vlave size                   31                35mm
Piston top                                raised          flat - notch for inlet valve
Gudgeon pin size                     20mm         20mm
Sump                                      deep            deep


My first iteration of this engine took the normal path - Carbs for breathing, exhaust for breathing, camshaft for breathing
If an R17TS can get 125hp, so can I!


Offline Lotus 47

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Joined: Sep 2016
  • Location: Melbourne Australia
  • Posts: 92
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #1 on: Sunday,October 23, 2016, 07:32:50 PM »
BASIC CROSS FLOW UPGRADE.

The first engine I built with a decent amount of poke used the standard R16TS that was fitted to my car.

EXHAUST
I built a crude set of tubular headers, with unmatched lengths. primary pipes were 38mm diameter (OK actually 1.5"), with 1.6mm (1/16th") wall thickness. I bought 90 degree mandrel bends and gas welded them. I hand cut a 6mm steel plate to bolt to the head. Hand cutting is a crap job. The ports are oval AND angled, so hand cutting really was the only alternative I had back around 1990.

I bought a muffler (silencer) with 2 inlets and a single outlet, so my 4 tubular "headers" merged into 2, then went straight into the muffler. There is zero room for much else in a straight thru  system.

INTAKE
Twin 45DCOE Webers on R12 Gordini replica inlet manifolds. These manifolds were produced locally for some years, but are no longer available. Steve Veris can help out. Or Mecaparts, for which you will pay Mega dollars - photo below.

The Webers had 36mm chokes. No idea what jets were fitted! The Webers were mounted to the rigid R12 manifolds with a  rubber seal in between and cushion  absorbers under the heads of the nuts securing the carbs to the manifold. I have run these type of rubber seals for years without issues - see photo below


I fitted FOAM intake socks for a short time, until the car backfired one cold morning and set the foam on fire. I was at a service station about to fill up with petrol and I got out to see flames licking up thru the holes in the engine lid. I ran inside the store (it was a 7/11) but they didn't have an extinguisher! I ran out, throwing a couple of buckets of water on the car and extinguished the flames, I will NEVER use foam as a filter again. After that experience I set about fitting a nice steel canister around the Weber trumpets, and fitted a remote air filter. I used an R16TS filter housing and cut it down. This proved effect and during dyno testing we removed the canister lid and ran straight trumpets. Not power change occurred, which showed the air filter and trunking design was effective and did not restrict air flow - very important!

COMPRESSION
Nothing changed here. I used the standard flat top R16TS psitons with a lightly skimmed head, so it was probably under 9:1 compression ratio

HEAD
On the advice of those that know better, I sent my head to a specialist in Sydney - Colliers. He fitted large 42mm inlet valves, stiffer outer valve springs, and ported the head slightly.

The 42mm valves were fitted to the R17TS and R12 Gordini engines, plus the A110 1600S. They were available from my local Renault specialist back then. The head also had a little bit of work around the inlet valve to improve gas flow.

CAMSHAFT
The R16TS figures I don't have in front of me but they are far from "racy". Lotus had learned a bit from the Twin Cam and the Europas 35/65/65/35 cam timing gave a healthy boost in power with 280 degrees duration. I don't know what lift they used.
Knowing nothing about what alternatives to try, I asked around and the common grind seemed to be an A6 Cosworth profile used in Ford based performance engines. This was something like 46/78/78/46 with 304 degrees duration and about 10mm (0.4") lift. I was warned it would be a bit peaky for road use, but would work better in the Renault engine because it was a long stroke engine.

RESULT
It worked!
The carby jetting was far from perfect, but as a young-ish lad it provided all the go I needed for a traffic light racer. it was also effective on hill climbs and circuit lap/dash events.
I clocked 14.9 seconds on the 1/4 mile.

One club night we put my car on a dyno and it produced 75kW (100hp) at the rear wheels. And we limited engine rpm to 6000. It pulled sweetly to 8000, so there was more in it. Taking into account driveline losses I figured my engine easily met my 125hp target. the dyno man stated it was the best 1600 he'd ever tested! I put in all down to the head design. It really is VERY good

The major costs were the head mods, and the twin 45DCOE. No pistons, rods or other major mechanical changes. The cam regrind was about A$80. The distributor was modified by Colliers as well. They restricted the advance and fitted a different spring to one of the counter balance weights, plus fitted "heavy duty" points. I still run the same distributor today after 25 years! As the engine was sourced in Australia, it ran locally produced Bosch electrics - dizzy and starter.

More to come and of course some photos to keep you all happy
 

Offline Lotus 47

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Joined: Sep 2016
  • Location: Melbourne Australia
  • Posts: 92
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #2 on: Monday,October 24, 2016, 06:53:28 PM »
RENAULT ENGINE BLOCKS

Today's lesson is all about the Renault blocks and what you might find.

The an important feature is the engine mounts. Below is a bunch of pictures showing the engine mounting holes you need, plus a version you might want to avoid.

The block casting will suit a cross flow AND non-cross flow head.

All these blocks below use the 84mm stroke crank.

These blocks fall into two distinct categories

The Type 801 and 821 engines use 77mm bore liners with a stepped section at the bottom on the liners that measures 82.5mm. These seat on a square step, and use paper style shims/seals between the liner and the block. Capacity 1565cc

The Type 841 and 843 engines use 79mm bore liners with a stepped section at the bottom on the liners that measures 84mm (I need to check that dimension!).  These seat on a square step WITH A CHAMFER, and use a rubber O-ring seal between the liner and the block. 1647cc

The Type 821 comes from the later Federal S2 Europas. It has a non cross-flow head
The Type 841 comes from the Renault 18 sedan. It has a non cross-flow head
The Type 807 comes from the Renault 16TS sedan and R15/17 coupe. It has a cross-flow head
The Type 843 comes from the Renault 16TX sedan and maybe the Fuego and R20. It has a cross-flow head
 
I think the 697-04 block, which has 76mm bores, will accept the slightly larger 77mm bores. The crank is 81mm stroke, v's 84mm for the other engines.  I am 99% sure you can fit a 84mm stroke crank in the 697-04 block without any mods to the  block.

If you have a block that has Europa compatible set of engine mounts, then you are on your way to start building an engine any where from 80hp to 160hp.

The 84mm stroke cranks are good for revving, and generally have very hard journals that may not have worn and may not need to be re-ground.

The case or cover that goes on the front of the engine (in a Europa) has two basic variants. With and without a hole for a front crankshaft pulley.

The front cover hole pattern varied but basically the covers can be interchangeable with any block (some had dowels replacing 2 of the bolts)

The sump bolt pattern never changed.

The cranks fit any block.

One flywheel fits all.

The flywheel and crank have an offset hole pattern, so the flywheel can only be bolted-on in one specific position. It has a timing mark machined into it.

The timing chain never changed and I think the timing chain tensioner never changed.

This is one tough and light bottom end, with a huge amount of commonality. This commonality leads to relatively inexpensive parts like main bearing shells and conrod big end shells.

I gather cross flow Renault engines are relatively rare in the US, so if you find one, carefully inspect the block for the mounting points, but don't worry if they are different! If they are wrong, you can always substitute your 697-04 block or 821-30 block.

If you have a decent machinist at you disposal, you can modify the block to accept the larger liners with 79mm bores.

Too easy mate!

Offline old racer

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Joined: Jan 2014
  • Location: Sydney Australia
  • Posts: 2
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #3 on: Monday,October 24, 2016, 11:32:53 PM »
Richard, thanks for putting this up, you are a fountain of knowledge!

I'm in Sydney and have chassis 7005130185Q, 66 cars later than yours. Also Australian delivered and still with original 1470cc engine. Over the years I have collected a couple of R18 engines and 5 speed boxes and three R16TS motors with the intention of building a cross flow engine using Mecaparts high compression pistons. From your advice maybe these rather expensive pistons are not necessary. I guess any increased horsepower will also require drive shaft mods.

I have held off doing any modifications as the car is highly original and only used to buy the paper on a Sunday morning, but should that 1470cc engine spit the dummy I'll be following your instructions.

Cheers

John

Offline Lotus 47

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Joined: Sep 2016
  • Location: Melbourne Australia
  • Posts: 92
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday,October 25, 2016, 01:41:44 PM »
Hi John,

An Australian Europa with the original 1470cc engine is a rare beast indeed! If the car hasn't been modified, I'd advise to keep it that way. However, I like to think all the mods I have done over the years are reversible, so if you attack it with the right mind set - modify away!

Fitting a 5 speed is a big job. Can you justify it if you are simply using the car to buy the Sunday paper and smash out a few Sudoku and the daily cross word?

If you want to build a 130hp+ engine, then special pistons will be required to raise the compression. There are many ways to approach this, and I'll cover some of them in one of my lessons.

I'm only a phone call away if you would like to discuss a modification in more detail 0419 565 959

Cheers!!

Richard Mann
26/4101
460047
47-GT-3
7004100119Q
A110 1300VC15899

Offline Lotus 47

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Joined: Sep 2016
  • Location: Melbourne Australia
  • Posts: 92
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday,October 25, 2016, 02:24:16 PM »
RENAULT SUMPS AND PUMPS

Today's lesson is about sumps. Pretty boring topic.

There is only one sump I use, and that is the standard R16 sump.

It is fitted to most Type 697, 801, 821, 843 engines and is what a Europa has. I like this sump, because it is deep, and there is a long oil pump pick-up to dive deep into this sump.

The standard oil pump is bullet proof in my opinion, and I've never sought to fit a bigger pump. All the engines I've ever built re-used the oil pump. l've not found one that was under spec. If in doubt - read the workshop manual.

The R15 and R17 engines I've pulled down used a shallow sump with a short oil pick up. Not my preference.

I have seen one high volume oil pump, and I think it was fitted to an 843 engine I pulled out of a Renault 16TS. The engine was not original for the R16TS but it was an unexpected bonus. Theses oil pumps simply have a longer rotor 
and longer mating outer part (I'm not actually sure of the correct terminology).

These longer components are fitted into the standard block without any modification. It is the oil pump housing that has a recess to accommodate the longer parts.

I have downloaded a couple of pictures from Mecaparts. You can easily see the difference in the rotor length. They got their photos mixed up - those crazy French eh!

Be warned - you can buy a 5mm longer pump set, but there is no modified housing for sale to accommodate it!

So stick with your standard Europa sump and oil pump and pickup. The sump is stamped steel and light weight.

One further option is a fancy pants cast alloy sump with fins, as supplied on the A110 1600S. It has a beautiful  Alpine flying "A"cast into the face so you can see it if you are driving behind an A110 in a Europa!

This sump is big, heavy and super expensive (for an Aussie). Do you yourself a favour and give it a miss.

Keep it simple and cost effective.

One final but of advice. I always fill my sumps with 5 litres of oil and calibrate the dip stick to suit.

Offline old racer

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Joined: Jan 2014
  • Location: Sydney Australia
  • Posts: 2
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday,October 25, 2016, 04:05:39 PM »
Richard,

Thanks for your comments and contact number. I race a Formula Ford in Historics and thought the Europa might make a nice car for Regularity if it had a little more horse power. But as you say, maybe not the right thing to do to a matching numbers car.

I'll continue to follow your lessons for the day I'm too old and slow in FF, which is fast approaching!

John

Offline jbcollier

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2013
  • Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
  • Posts: 1,451
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday,October 26, 2016, 07:29:44 AM »
The alloy sumps can be porous.  I had to boil mine (to get the impregnated oil out and then powder coat it to seal it.

Offline Lotus 47

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Joined: Sep 2016
  • Location: Melbourne Australia
  • Posts: 92
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday,October 26, 2016, 07:16:59 PM »
RENAULT RODS

Today's lesson is about Renault connecting rods. Often called conrods or just rods.

In my limited experience I've never seen an alloy block R16 type engine "throw" a rod. Fundamentally they are very sound. You have nothing to worry about.

The big end size never changed
The rod length never changed (136.2mm according to the Lotus book) and I think Renault quote a slightly different figure like 136.5mm or even 137mm. It doesn't really matter does it?

So far I know of 4 variants

Europa and R16 - your bog standard rod with a 20mm fit gudgeon pin or wrist pin. The pin is a PRESS fit in the rod. Lots of manufacturers do this. It deletes two circlips and two grooves so it saves money in high volume production. It also means your rod doesn't need to have the top bearing replaced because there is no wearing surface in the little end. Simple. These rods use two bolts and two nuts to secure the big end bearing cap.

The R15TS and R17TL engines I've seen (807-10) have rods that looks almost identical, but the gudgeon pin is 21mm press fit. These rods use two bolts and two nuts to secure the big end bearing cap, same as  above.

The R18 and R16TX (1647cc) engines I've seen have a beefier tapered rod with 21mm press fit gudgeon pin.These rods use two bolts and two nuts to secure the big end bearing cap, same as above.

Finally the R17TS also known as the 17 Gordini engine, plus R12 Gordinin plus A110 1600S use rods that are called "Gordini" rods. These use a floating 21mm gudgeon pin running in a bronze bush. The big end bearing cap is retained by two bolts - no nuts are fitted. 

If you are rebuilding an engine with the view of making it more powerful, then your choice of piston may force you to use a different rod. i.e. one with a 21mm little end because the pistons you buy will most likely have a 21mm gudgeon. If you get custom pistons, then make sure you get gudgeon pin sized to suit your rods.

You can buy aftermarket rods. I just checked ebay and there is set advertised for an R12 Gordini for AUS$339 with 21mm little end, which sounds OK to me. Made in China. No experience with these, so no further comment

My general advice - re-use whatever is in your engine. It's the cheapest solution.

The photo titles explain the rods





Offline jbcollier

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Nov 2013
  • Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
  • Posts: 1,451
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday,October 26, 2016, 09:00:37 PM »
Over in good old NA, the first R17G came with the 807-13 engine.  Early versions came with a forged crank and the rods you mention: 21 mm floating pin and bolted rod cap (no nuts) but later versions came with a cast crank and 20 mm press fit pins but still with bolted rod caps.

The Chinese produced H-beam rods were criticized on the aussiefrogs site.  One failed rather spectacularly IIRC.  I bought Euro produced ones and so far so good (knock on wood).

PS: Am enjoying this thread!

Offline Lotus 47

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Joined: Sep 2016
  • Location: Melbourne Australia
  • Posts: 92
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #10 on: Friday,October 28, 2016, 09:08:21 PM »
Thanks John!

It is always nice to get some feedback

Offline Lotus 47

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Joined: Sep 2016
  • Location: Melbourne Australia
  • Posts: 92
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #11 on: Friday,October 28, 2016, 09:21:39 PM »
RENAULT LINERS

Today's lesson is all about liners. Things get a little bit interesting here, and without playing around with liners, you are not going to get any increase in capacity. Bigger is better right?

The liners all share similar visual characteristics, and at first glance they look the same.

From the outside, there are two flats machined onto the liners. These allow the liners to sit tightly nestled together. The liners are 89mm wide corresponding with the 89mm bore centres of the block.

697, 807 & 821 ENGINES

The bottom of the liner is stepped down to 82.5mm in diameter for 76mm and 77mm bore engines. I understand the very early 697-04 engines had 82mm diameter. This stepped area fits neatly into the alloy block. Between the liner step and the block are “paper” seals, which come in three different thicknesses.

1 –I don’t believe they have any sealing capacity, so I always liberally apply a high temperature silicon type gasket sealer to both sides of the “paper” seals.

2 – I ALWAYS use the thickest paper gasket or shim. This helps to make the liner protrude a bit higher than the block, and ensures excellent sealing between the liner and the alloy head.

841 & 843 ENGINES

These liners look the same but have a bore of 79mm. The stepped down area is 84mm from memory. These liners were sealed with an O-ring. A small chamfer is machined in the block to house the O-ring.  Again I always liberally apply gasket sealer. In an early exercise I built an engine and relied on the O-ring to do all the sealing. The O-ring leaked and required a complete engine strip down, simply to apply less than a dollars worth of sealer. :-\

CAPACITY

76mm bore – this was confined to the 697 engine, and with its short 81mm stroke crank, gave 1470cc
77mm bore seems to be the most prolific, and was seen in a wide variety of 807 engines, and the 821. The 84mm stroke gave 1565cc.
77.8mm bore were in some 1600 Alpines, giving 1596cc with the 84mm stroke crank
78mm bores were in some 1600 Alpines as well, giving 1605cc with the 84mm stroke crank.
79mm bores were fitted to the 841 and 843 engines, giving 1647cc with the 84mm crank. Some Alpines used this bore.

Alpine ran up to 82mm bores in their rally cars and pistons/liner kits are available from Mecaparts.

In my first big bore engine, I took some 79mm liners and had them bored to 81mm. I stroked the crank 3.0mm to get a total capacity of 1793cc. This is the engine that leaked around the liner seals, so I stripped it, sealed up the liners, changed the cam and put it all back together. That engine completed many many kilometers on the road. One track day it dropped a valve at 7000rpm and destroyed itself.

But I digress!

The second big bore I built for my mates A110. We had heard of these legendary 1800cc Alpines, so I took on the challenge to build a cost effective replica.

I determined that 81.75mm was the biggest bore I could achieve by reworking a set of old R18 liners I had sitting on my shelf. The main constraint was the diameter of the very bottom of the liner. The step area was 84mm diameter, and the bottom of the liner is machined down again by about 0.25mm. So with an outside diameter of 83.75mm and an inside diameter of 81.75mm the bottom of the liner was skimpy at 1mm wall thickness. Not ideal for a piece of cast iron!


The outcome? Well the bottom of the liner fragmented resulting in a horrible piston slap and a considerable drop in power. My mate persisted and belted around Sandown racetrack until it split a liner and things went a bit south. The pistons and liners were damaged but I successfully rebuilt the engine with liners bored to 81mm.

So my rule of thumbs is you can bore out a Renault liner up to 2.0mm oversize.
Finding a competent machinist is the key, and there are few people around that can do this work properly. It is not expensive, but it is a specialized job.

I’ve had liners machined in the block, but they need to be held down. They need to be held reasonably tight during boring, because they want to spin in the block. An incorrectly clamped liner will result in it distorting. After it is bored/honed, then unclamped, the liner is not longer round. I recommend having the liners bored individually.


With a decent machinist, a 697 or 807 or 821 alloy block can be block can be bored out to accept a larger diameter liner.

The limiting factor is the small bore centre of 89mm. With 82mm bore, and 89mm centres that only leaves 7mm of metal, or 3.5mm per side. Not a lot!


I've finished the Renault liner story, but I’m not finished yet! My desire to build a big bore engine continued, but I needed a liner with more material down the bottom end.

I’ve built a few 105 alloy Alfa engines over the years, and started to look at Alfa liners. Sure enough the liners from a 1750 are a bit beefier down the bottom. They are also larger in diameter and taller.  I reworked a set of old Alfa liners from 80mm bore to 81.75mm and these have survived.

LINER      STROKE   CAPACITY     APPLICATION
BORE
76mm       81mm      1470cc        697 and Europa
77mm       81 mm     1510cc       Possible piston/liner upgrade for Europa
76mm       84mm      1524cc       Possible crank upgrade for Europa
77mm       84mm      1565cc       Common size for Renault 807/821
77.8mm    84mm      1597cc        Alpine 1600. Maybe R12 Gordini
78mm       84mm      1606cc        Alpine 1600
79mm       84mm      1647cc        R16TX, R18, R20, Alpine 1600
81mm       84mm      1731cc        Hand built Richard Mann for Alpine
81mm       87mm      1793cc        Hand built Richard Mann for Europa (destroyed)
81.75mm  84mm      1764cc        Hand built Richard Mann for A110. Rebuilt to 81mm bore
82mm       84mm      1774cc        Alpine factory rally cars

My S2 Europa currently runs a 81.75mm bore engine with standard 84mm stroke.


Offline Serge

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Joined: Aug 2012
  • Location: Belgium
  • Posts: 277
  • http://sleurs-motorsport.com
    • Sleurs Motorsport
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday,November 01, 2016, 05:37:31 AM »
Very interesting reading Richard!

I have some questions, if you have time to help out.

I am planning to build a big bore 821 (wedge head) engine for my S1 Europa.

I have a complete high volume oil pump sitting in the garage, is there any reason not to use this, in stead of the original one? I will be using an external oil cooler routed to the front of the car.

Also, do you feel it is safe to bore out an 821 block to 85.5mm?
(this is the diameter of the Mecaparts 82.5mm liners that goes in to the block, to get a total of 1796cc with a 84mm crank)

If not, what would you consider safe? Being in mainland Europa means that Mecaparts isn't too expensive, cheap shipping and no import taxes)

Thanks in advance!

Serge

Offline Lotus 47

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Joined: Sep 2016
  • Location: Melbourne Australia
  • Posts: 92
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday,November 02, 2016, 03:59:42 AM »
Very interesting reading Richard!

I have some questions, if you have time to help out.

I am planning to build a big bore 821 (wedge head) engine for my S1 Europa.

I have a complete high volume oil pump sitting in the garage, is there any reason not to use this, in stead of the original one? I will be using an external oil cooler routed to the front of the car.

Also, do you feel it is safe to bore out an 821 block to 85.5mm?
(this is the diameter of the Mecaparts 82.5mm liners that goes in to the block, to get a total of 1796cc with a 84mm crank)

Serge

Hi Serge,

The world seems to be watching your restoration! Congratulations! You are doing a great job.

Q1 - High Volume Oil Pump - if you have one then use it! With a remote oil cooler it will have more restriction in the system, so it makes sense to run the pump you have. I run a remote oil filter because it is impossible to get to the standard oil filter when twin Webers are fitted. It still runs perfectly but I do wonder if the oil pressure has dropped as a result. My oil pressure sender is absolutely useless!

Q2 - 821 Block - The block will be fine if you bore it out to suit the Mecaparts liners.

I have bought LOTS of parts from Mecaparts, mainly nice replica shiny bling and window rubbers to suit my A110.
However, I did buy 3 gearbox end housings (for a 5 speed conversion) some 6 years ago and they were rubbish. I made them work but it took heaps of time to rework them. I believe the latest parts they supply are much better (and twice the price!).

I also bought a pile of A110 parts from a fellow Aussie that was planning to build a replica A110. In the pile was some Mecaparts 82mm liners. They were "new" but someone had measured the bores and found them to be oval. NOT ROUND. So be warned. carefully look at their returns policy. Ask before you buy. Read up on bore ovality and get them to commit to a specification, then check when you receive the parts. For 1254.60 € you want it to be right and the best.

They sell head gaskets to suit this bore for 147.15 € . Not cheap! And they are 1.75mm thick.

I had a batch of gaskets made with 83mm clearance around the fire ring. They are 1.1mm thick to keep the compression high (more on this later). And I sell them for less than AU$50 each.

I am not trying to put you off Mecaparts, but I do believe in paying Europa prices rather than A110 prices.

And if you still have it, hold onto the original engine for your car.

Well done on your website. Keep it going!

Cheers

Richard

   

Offline Serge

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Joined: Aug 2012
  • Location: Belgium
  • Posts: 277
  • http://sleurs-motorsport.com
    • Sleurs Motorsport
Re: RICHARD MANN'S CROSS FLOW RENAULT ENGINES
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday,November 02, 2016, 02:27:34 PM »
Thank you for the info, Richard!

It will be a non-crossflow engine, so I only need the liner from mecaparts, not the Pistons, so it Will be about 660 + VAT.

When you prepare an engine block, do you narrow the oil-passages in the camshaft area? I've seen that they make these smaller with some inserts to get higher oil pressure in the block.

Unfortunately I don't have the original engine to my car. This however does give me the opportunity to build a "hot rod" engine for the car.

I might have to talk to you about one of those headgaskets!

Serge