Author Topic: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 40 DCOE Head  (Read 16181 times)

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Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #15 on: Friday,September 16, 2016, 11:21:04 AM »
Brian, that's the way I remember it.

Joe, is that current information from Bean? His website is WAY out of date. Regardless, I think it would at least be an interesting exercise to call them over at Bean and ask about it. Bean used to have a machine shop - he built my engine - but I don't think he has one any more. That certainly isn't to say that he doesn't or couldn't farm out machining projects to a shop. For that matter, that may have been the way he built my engine!  ;D
I'm taking the information off Bean's website. I know it is very old so I would not be surprised if the prices have increased, assuming he still offers the modification. Alternatively there is always the conversion to SUs. And there is also a conversion to a Weber 38/38 downdraft. Both of those don't require modification to the head.

There is also the Mikuni HSR conversion to consider. I was seriously considering experimenting with a setup for my Hermes S2 with a single DCOE45. The setup should be similar to the Stromberg head for the twin cam.

http://www.v-performance.com/products/air_fuel.html


Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #16 on: Friday,September 16, 2016, 11:11:06 PM »
Apparently you don't need to weld the cast alloy, it is more like soldering using an aluminium filler rod, and oxy-acetylene to heat up the surfaces and melt the rod.

But if a bolt on manifold is cheap enough, it cannot take long to cut off the old manifold, machine the head flat using a milling machine, drill and tap 8 holes, and put liquid gasket in place to seal the joint.

Alex in Norfolk.

Hmm, not sure about the soldering process on this application.  My memory is hazy but I recall being able to join aluminium using a zinc based solder, I think it was a tin-zinc alloy similar to what we used to solder titanium sheet for Chlorine cells.   It's a good bond but nowhere near as strong as a conventional weld and given the weight of the webers hanging off it I'd want a large surface area of bond before I'd go that way.

Bolt on looks the way to go to me.

Brian



Offline jbcollier

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #17 on: Saturday,September 17, 2016, 07:24:04 AM »
BDA wrote "but I wonder if the engine has gotten too old for many people to want such a high dollar mod"

Twin Cam Lotus engines are heavily used in various vintage racing applications.  There is a whole industry built up around their manufacture, maintenance and performance upgrading. See the summer 2015 issue of "Historic Racing Technology".

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4129 wrote " it cannot take long to cut off the old manifold, machine the head flat using a milling machine, drill and tap 8 holes, and put liquid gasket in place to seal the joint"

But "where" to cut the head?  Where to machine?  What other mods may be required for it all to work: a spot of weld here or there, plug this passage, open up that one?  And the spacial jigs required to make the whole operation easily repeatable.  It's a lot more involved than it appears.

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It always distresses me when someone pours hundreds of hours developing a really useful modification and people cry foul because they have to pay more than the equivalent weight of scrap aluminium.  All I can say is thank goodness for those of us who are not only willing but delighted to pay the prices required to support and continue these developments.

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #18 on: Saturday,September 17, 2016, 07:45:51 AM »
If anyone in the USA is on speaking terms with Omnitec or Bean, and they would be kind enough to give them a ring to find out if they have any manifolds left, I need 7 inlet manifolds to convert all the Zenith heads I have accumulated here.

I can get the machining done locally, and the manifolds would only be gathering dust on a shelf somewhere.

Alex in Norfolk.

I talked to Ken at DBE the other day on another matter and asked if they still offered the Weber conversion. According to Ken, they no longer do the conversions and don't have any manifolds left. They refer customers to Omnitech instead.

Instead of casting new inlet manifolds, I wonder if you can adapt an existing aftermarket  Weber manifold (cut and weld )to suit.

I plan on following up on this with my machinist next week and get his input on labor and cost for the conversion. I'm pretty confident that he's capable of doing the job. The problem again is sourcing the manifolds.

Offline 4129R

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #19 on: Saturday,September 17, 2016, 08:15:32 AM »
So far, I have cut the manifold to 3 & 4 cylinders back flush with the head for an easy fit for a manifold. 1&2 cylinders will need milling to get a flat surface to bolt a manifold to. I go to my local tool shop tomorrow to see if the cut down manifold head will fit in their milling machine.

To cut back the manifolds, I used an enormous cut off machine I bought 15 years ago which has been sitting in my garage gathering dust. So far it has blown 2 x 13 amp fuses, but it cuts through the cast aluminium easily with the metal blade. I had to cut back the bottom of the guard to the blade by about 40mm to clear the head, but the remainder of the guard makes the machine quite safe to use. 

Two options for a manifold. Steel plates connected by appropriate tubes, or get a specialist to cast one in aluminium. I prefer the aluminium route, as it will be easier to match up the ports and polish the insides, but it could be expensive, even for the 7 manifolds I need.

Alex in Norfolk.

 

Offline BDA

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #20 on: Saturday,September 17, 2016, 08:18:56 AM »
Very gutsy and interesting project! Good luck and please keep us up to date on it!

 :lotus:

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #21 on: Saturday,September 17, 2016, 08:53:49 AM »
How about posting a picture of where you're up to Alex ?

On the steel manifold option, I made one several years ago for a Volvo engine by exactly the same route you mention;  3/8" steel plate for the flanges and steel pipe between them. I think I even used 90 deg fittings suitably hacked about for some parts.  All much easier than it sounds although making it look nice was a harder job. 

But in your case it could make sense because should you decide to go for a cast manifold, you'll have a prototype all ready for them to see and perhaps use as a basis for a mold.

Another option whilst you're in the thinking stages, ever thought about converting one to throttle bodies or similar fuel injection ? A few guys on Lotuselan.net have fuel injection systems and it does seem an alternative way to go if you're cutting metal ?

Offline 4129R

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #22 on: Saturday,September 17, 2016, 10:34:05 AM »
I am taking photos of the head as I go. I will reduce them in file size and post them during the week.

I also took photos of 4688R before the bodyshell went on a wooden pallet trolley to the ex-Lotus bodyshop for repair and painting. I screwed 2 4ft lengths of 4x2 to a pallet which came over in the 40ft container, and screwed on 4 trolley wheels, 1 to each corner. Then I used rachet straps to hold it down on the trolley. The whole shell weight not a lot, and can be pushed around a flat surface very easily. I saw the Formula 1 pit crews pushing the cars around on those trolleys, so I thought I would do the same.

To put the shell on the trolley, I cut 4x2 to put through the engine bay where the tanks were, and lifted the back with an engine crane, then used 2 metal trestles or bandstands, put an 8ft length of 4x2 side to side, and then chained the 4x2 from the bodyshell to the 4x2 on the trestles. Then I repeated the whole thing on the front, so the whole shell was held on 2 x 8ft lengths of 4x2, and the trolley went underneath, I lowered the shell onto the pallet, strapped it down, and pushed it on to my trailer to take it to the body shop. 

Dave Golding, one of the two who run the bodyshop place, used to make the doors for Europas. He told me he made 6 doors a day, and more than half of the total made.

The problem I forsee in making the manifold is that the tubes taper in size from the 45mm down to around 40mm where they will bolt to the head. The valve seats seem to be 36mm, so the inlet tube further reduces in size during the last 75mm or so from where the manifold joins the head, to the valve.

I am thinking of either finding another cast aluminium inlet manifold of similar tube sizes and adapting that, or buying a solid 55mm diameter aluminium bar, and boring a 40mm hole down the middle, and then gas flowing it from 45mm down to the 40mm using an internal grinder.

It looks very do-able, once you have found the recipe. If the manifold and head are properly gas flowed, and the Webers properly jetted, I cannot see why 125bhp - 130bhp would not be easily available from a very tractable engine, for not a lot of expense. I forsee the actual machining of the head will take about 4 hours (1 hour with the grinder cut off tool and 3 hours with a milling machine).

My car (4129R) with its new Weber head, new cams etc cost a fortune to build the engine, but the car pulls to 6500 in 1st to 4th very quickly.

As I have around 8-12 weeks to wait until 4688R returns from the bodyshop in Lagoon Blue, I have time on my hands to experiment with the heads, as I have no more space left to strip down the 3 other TCS that I have waiting in the queue.

Alex in Norfolk.     

Offline 4129R

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #23 on: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 08:36:38 AM »
Well I have invested in a decent accurate milling & drilling machine, and I have cut into 3 & 4 cylinder inlet manifolds as far as the 80mm long milling bit will go.

I am about 25-30mm short of cutting back enough to get a proper fixing around the inlet port, so I will go online to find a longer milling machine cutter bit.

It is like drilling for oil, hoping that you don't find oil !!!

I will post photos soon.

Luckily I had a Zenith head with no cam bearing caps which was therefore worthless, so there is nothing to be lost by exploration.

Alex in Norfolk.


Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #24 on: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 08:55:07 AM »
Well I have invested in a decent accurate milling & drilling machine

Oh, that's interesting Alex, what did you get ?  I've often thought that a milling machine would come in handy but never gone past the "wishful thinking" stage.

Brian

Offline BDA

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #25 on: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 09:26:54 AM »
I'm very interested in your progress as well! I consider it a pretty brave undertaking even if you have a "junk" head to explore on!  :)

Offline 4129R

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #26 on: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 09:27:59 AM »
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cl-cmd300-mill-drill/

It seems to be able to do what I want.

It can only handle small items, but I have found a way of getting to where I want to cut, and it is very accurate.

Alex in Norfolk.

Offline andy harwood

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #27 on: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 11:09:20 AM »
When I read this thread, I thought "hmmm' that's a idea. I bought a mill earlier this year, and have a TCS engine  sitting in the shop. After looking at the head, seeing how much material will have to be removed, and not knowing whats under the surface, said 'hmmm' again, went back into the house
Alex, I admire your taking on this project. Getting the head set up, and removing the substantial amount of material that needs to be removed, you will be turning cranks on that table quite a bit!
Please do post photos. And if you can, photos of how you set up the head to table. I'm just guessing you used a slotted angle plate?
BTW, nice mill. They really do come in handy!

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #28 on: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 12:11:05 PM »
QED carries cam bearing caps. You would have to line bore them, of course.

http://qedmotorsport.co.uk/qed-shop/lotus-twin-cam/cylinder-head-components

Weber, Dell, Mikuni, Solex carbs flow way better than their period competition, absolutely, but, they have primary and secondary venturis which limit flow quite a bit compared to throttle body injection or, cheaper and easier to tune, modern flat-slide motorcycle carbs.  I don't think you would have any problems hitting your horse power targets with a two port TC head and flat slides.

Offline buzzer

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #29 on: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 01:19:54 PM »
Just a thought, plastic manifold? May be worth looking at. There may even be a 3D printing technic that could do it? Temperature stability and strength are the issues. It may even be possible to make up something that joins onto the cut off inlet stumps. 

Dave
Dave,

Other cars. Westfield SEiW. BMW E90 Alpina D3. BMW 325 E30 convertible and Range Rover CSK