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Lotus Europa Forums => The Paddock => Topic started by: Mecky on Saturday,August 04, 2012, 03:23:58 PM

Title: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Saturday,August 04, 2012, 03:23:58 PM
Hi everyone,

I want to start a thread about racing with Europas. Is there anyone in this forum, who is has some experiece in racing these cars? I would love to read about it.

I will start with a little piece of my first experiences (we started racing our S2 in 2011):

Since 2008 my father, my brother and my uncle were racing my uncle's 1969 Porsche 911 T at vintage racing cups. In 2009 my father bought our 1969 S2 as his "weekend-car", but he was allready dreaming about his next own race car. He started racing in 1970 and was driving a few race cars on different competitions since that time. After he bought the S2 it was only a question of time until this car will come on track.

In Winter 2010 we decided to race the Europa. My father, my two older brothers and me would be the drivers.
We talked to some Lotus-"Experts", which said that the Europa is in standard configuration already quiet fit for racing. So we installed the safety measures, semi-slicks and went to Spa-Francorchamps to race.

But after the first qualifying it was obvious that the Europa is not fit for racing...
My father's short conclusion: "No brakes and no power."

In the paddock we were able to improve the brakes by using endurance-racing brake-pads and racing braking fluid. The engine could not be done there. In the race, we did not finish, because the fan wheel collapsed and killed the water cooler.
And after this weekend, we saw another problem. The frame was cracked on some positions.

We had to do "something":
- restore the frame by welding it
- reduce weight
- improve the engine

The frame is completely restored now. It is welded on all cracked positions  :welder: and painted in grey.
We reduced the weight from about 740 kg to 680 kg by using light-weight parts (for example the new water-cooler and fan wheel) or removing superfluid parts like the leather-interior, the heater and so on. We also replaced the original door windows with electric lift by lexan-windows.

And the greatest succes was the engine. At the first race it had maybe 100 HP (little tuned 1565cc engine).
Now the engine is "really fit for racing". Racing parts like pistons, rods, crank shaft and cam shaft are used. And also the cylinder head was completely conditioned for racing. Now it has about 150 HP.
It's running great. I still remember a situation from a race on the Hockenheim-Ring:
A 2,0 Porsche 911 is in front of me, both of us are accelerating out of a corner and I overtake him like it would be nothing. This Porsche had no problem and it is a quiet fast 2,0 911. A great feeling :-)

But still the braking is not like we would wish it. It seems like the rear brakes are not working good enough... We have to brake until 70 metres earlier at the hairpin in Hockenheim than some other cars (for example: a Porsche 911 can brake at about 120 metres and I needed to brake around 190 metres before the corner).

Everything else on this car works great now. We replaced the original (soft) coils and dampers by racing parts. We also reduced the cars height until 7 centimetres. When we learned about setting the car up, we could be able to reach top ten positions in our competition. In Hockenheim we reached position 27 of 50 cars and P3 in class.

Our last race in Spa (one year after the very first) ended as early as one year ago: after seven laps the head-gasket blew. But nothing else was destroyed :-)

If you are interested, you can have a look at my website (in the profile and the signature).

I'm looking forward to reading from you!

Best regards

Stefan

P.S.:  :ttiwwp:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: benbeames on Saturday,August 04, 2012, 09:46:51 PM
Wow, by a strange coincidence I was just looking at your website earlier today.   I love the look of your car.  I just autocross my Europa and I'm not happy with the brakes either.  When I started the back brakes did nothing.  New pads, cylinders, and steel braided flexible brake lines have made a BIG difference, but if you test drive an Elise you'll know how good brakes can be and my S2 is a long way off from there. 

Another guy I know who races a 300+ hp Europa with a turbo charged rotary engine is running bigger drums on the back.  And he's got enough rear braking that if his proportioning valve isn't set right, the rear brakes will cause the car to spin.  So you can go that route.   Or install disc brakes back there.   I wish I knew what he was running on the front wheels.

Ben
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Saturday,August 04, 2012, 10:54:00 PM
Ok guys, first thing is that I don't (and never will) race cars but as I've said previously, I like to look at the engineering behind the conversions. 

So brakes ? Rear brake width was increased slightly from the S2 to the Special, I forget the exact numbers but same diameter with an extra 1/4" width comes to mind ?  As you probably both know there are rear disc conversions around, plus I've also read about using Triumph TR7 back plates and drums which are larger diameter IIRC for those who don't want rear discs.

For front brakes there are the 4-pot caliper conversions which again I'm sure you know of. Another option is for the larger discs & calipers off the Triumph GT6 & Vitesse using 16P calipers. I've done this on my road-going Elan and it seems to be a common mod for people doing track days over here because it's relatively cheap. The discs and calipers are more or less the same price as the 14xx caliper & discs but the mounting brackets are only available s/h. (I paid £25 for mine last year).

Having said that, my personal experience on the road is that the most notable difference was in the pad material which varies from "oh sh....ugar, this isn't going to stop" to "wow".
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Sunday,August 05, 2012, 01:38:43 AM
Hi guys,

we already installed a two-circle-braking system with steel-flex brake lines and a master brake cylinder of the Porsche 911 without brake booster. The front brakes seem to work well. It is possible to get the front wheels standing while braking. In rain the front wheels are standing almost at the moment you start braking... The car has not enough weight on the front wheels. Because of that it has not enough grip in rain. But we are not able to put more parts from rear to front. When it is rainy, we put about 15 kg of lead into the front boot. Not the perfect solution, but better than doing nothing...

The problem is that on our vintage racing events we have to use the parts, which were originally used on the same car in racing until 1971. -> We have to keep our brakes. Maybe better rear brake shoes can help. We need brake shoes which are specific for racing.

A Lotus 47 would be a dream :-) A car, which is constructed as race car. Front and rear disc brakes and a twin cam engine (which today can have up to 190 HP). That's a winner's car :-P
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: benbeames on Sunday,August 05, 2012, 03:06:37 PM
You think you could slip n some GT6 brakes in there without anyone noticing?  They'd be period correct and there's always the notion that you're not really compeating in racing until you're borderline cheating.   ^-^

Not that I'm advocating cheating, but pushing the rules to their limits.  Though some say it's not cheating unless you get caught.   Thankfully I'm nowhere near a good enough driver to have to worry about these moral dilemmas.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Sunday,August 05, 2012, 10:28:42 PM
Allegedly ( ;) ) some Elans used to do that over this side of the pond, whether it was classed as cheating or period modifications I don't know.  It's a tight fit but if yours is the only such car in scrutineering I think you might get away with it....

It does make a noticeable difference on the Elan but with the Europa being lighter at the front I'm not sure it would have the same benefit. I suppose it might be useful if you were running wider tyres though ?

Brian
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,August 06, 2012, 02:52:44 PM
Wider tyres would help, but it's hard to get bigger rims than 8x13" into the front wheel arches. There we use 215/50/13 semislicks. Slicks are not allowed for us. They are only allowed for cars built after 1971.

Does somebody know, how wide the rims and tyres of a Type 47 were in the period?
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Monday,August 06, 2012, 11:35:40 PM
I have a copy of the Robinshaw/Francis book on the Europa which gives a spec sheet for the mk47 GT from January 1967. That states the wheel rims are 7.5" front, 10" rear, so you're ahead of the game with 8" rims. (which seem amazingly wide for such a light car ! ). As for tyres,  it just says "to customer specifications".

The same book also gives the RAC/FIA papers for the Mk47. No wheels or tyres are quoted but the weight might be of interest to you, it was 559kgs (10.8cwt) with the TC engine fitted, so that's your next target  :)

Brian
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,August 07, 2012, 01:41:39 AM
Oh yes,

a Type 47 is great. This car could have until 30 HP more, 120 kg less weight and disc brakes all around.
And it could even race in GT1600 class against cars like Ford Escort Twin Cam and Alfa Romeo Guilia. Unfortunately we have to race in Two-Seater-Racing-Car 2000 class against cars like Porsche 907, Porsche 906, Chevron B16 and Lotus 23B. The Lotus 47 would be really competative in the TSRC2000 class, but in GT1600 it would be the "everytime-winner".

559 kg... a dream, but we are not allowed to have less than 615 kg. But even that is a dream. We already reduced the cars weight from 740 kg to the actual 680 kg. There still is this massive exhaust manifold and the water-container (both stainless steel). These two parts replaced by lighter ones could bring around 10 kg, I think. But then it would be still 55 kg to reach our minimum-weight.

Do you guys have more ideas?
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Tuesday,August 07, 2012, 09:10:08 AM
Anything to be gained from the alternator ?

Standard ones always seem quite heavy to me and there might be some mileage in looking to see if there are any others you could fit. I know you can get "racing" ones at around 2.5kg, which is (at a pure guess  :) ) probably around half the weight of an old standard one.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: benbeames on Tuesday,August 07, 2012, 10:12:34 AM
I use one of these 1.3lbs batteries in my car though that wouldn't be period at all:
http://www.kronospark.com/index.php/products-page/

Again I don't know what's legal in your racing.  I've got an iron block toyota engine in my car and have its weight down to 600 kg in race trim (with a half tank of fuel) and I still have the carpets in it for some reason. . . .  But I don't have a roll cage so I'm saving a lot of weight there.

Things I did:
Door and rear windows have been replaced with lexan
Heater core, heater fan and ducting removed
power window motors removed
battery replaced with 1.3 lbs battery
aluminum wheels
trunk removed
spare wheel removed
horn removed
seats replaced with fiberglass seats

That's about it.  I haven't replaced the windshield with a lighter one, nor have I removed the carpets and door trim just because I like how nice it is in there when I'm not racing. 

Exhaust could certainly save some.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,August 07, 2012, 02:27:58 PM
With a heavier engine under 600 kg. That's nice. I think our cage has about 40 kg. Even if we had no cage, we would have 40 kg more than you. Maybe our body is a bit heavier than your (enlarged wheel arches), but that's only a few kg.

A lighter alternator would help. With this and another exhaust and water-container we could win around 12 kg. Unfortunately a new exhaust would be quiet expensive. An Aluminium fly wheel would also bring a few kg. All in all about 15 kg, I think. That would make a difference. But 665 kg would be still 65 kg more than your car's weight. Even without cage a difference of about 25 kg.

I cannot understand, why our car is comparatively that heavy. The standard weight in the car's papers is 660 kg. Without the cage, our race car would be only 20 kg lighter than that...

We also did most things you did. Unless a standard lead-battery to get a bit weight on the front. We also installed Aluminium water pipes. Magnesium rims would be even lighter than Alu, but we just bought two sets of Alu Minilites a few months ago.

@Ben: I would like you to post pictures of your car. Maybe I can learn something from your configuration.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: benbeames on Tuesday,August 07, 2012, 04:57:31 PM
I forgot!  I have an aluminum flywheel.  But its only a few kg lighter.  The pressure plate weighs almost as much as it but I don't know of a lighter one of those.

I did weld some 16 guage steel sheet metal in on the "Y" part of the frame from the engine mounts back to "box" the frame, but I weighed the metal before I put it in and it was only adding about 1 kg.  My brake master cylinder is from a Nissan and is lighter than the original unit but not by a lot.

Below are some pictures, they're not great, just what I could find left in old emails.  The seat weighs 12 lbs as opposed to the stock 26 pound seat, but I'm currently making a creafoam bead seat which right now weighs only 8 lbs. Oh and the engine bay shows a heavier 15 lbs battery instead of 1.3 lbs battery.  I've also used a Braille 11lbs battery to good effect.

I did run with the battery in the front for a while but actually wanted more of a rearward weight balance.  I'm currently 43% of my weight in the front (with driver) and 57% in the rear. 

There are other auto cross guys out there with Europas that are down to the class limit here which is just under 1200lbs (mine is just over 1300 lbs).  So there's more that can be done, but I either don't know what it is, or I haven't decided that I'm ready to give it up yet.

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: benbeames on Wednesday,August 08, 2012, 03:05:06 PM
I've been looking at your website and the only differences I can see, as far as tings on yours that would add weight to mine are:

Oil cooler (plus the extra amount of oil to fill it)
Extra supports on the transmission (I've been thinking about trying something similar but am just trying a solid rear mount right now)
a fire extinguishing system
and the roll cage.

I think that could add up to around 50kg.  The roll cage being half of it.   I wouldn't give up any of those things for a bit less weight.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Sunday,August 12, 2012, 10:01:39 AM
Next weekend we are going to race on the former Formula 1 circuit Zolder (Belgium).

I hope they have a weighing machine at scrutineering.

Our aim is to go as fast as the best of the other 1600 cc cars and to reach a laptime around 2:05.

I will report what happened and if we had succes  :trophy:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: LotusJoe on Sunday,August 12, 2012, 12:42:31 PM
When I lived in Antwerp I loved going to Zolder. One of my favorite tracks in Europe. It's a shame Formula One no longer races there.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: benbeames on Sunday,August 12, 2012, 03:16:09 PM
Looking forward to hearing how you do!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Jas on Monday,August 13, 2012, 12:47:26 AM
Looking forward for your report. 
Good luck at the race.  :beerchug:

Jannik
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,August 21, 2012, 02:40:40 AM
Hi there,

back from Zolder. The weather was great. Too great. Around 35°C (95°F) and sunshine. Our water cooler was not able to perform good enough. Because of that we had to slow down, before we could go really fast. 2:05 min was the fastest time, but far away from limit.

In the race we had to quit, because the water temperature increased from 100°C (212°F) to more than 120°C (248°F) in about 20 seconds. Maybe the head-gasket again... We will have a look today.

But we learned:

1.) The cooling system is not good enough. Maybe the cooler is to small or the pump is not good enough.
2.) The suspension works well.
3.) The brakes have to be improved with a balance bar system.

Hopefully the engine is not affected to bad. Our aim is to improve the cooling system and brakes and then go for the four hours race at Nürburgring in October. The next race in Assen (NL) is too close (3 weeks).
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Tuesday,August 21, 2012, 09:43:15 AM
Let's hope the temperature rise isn't anything serious and you're back on track without too much trouble. 

Looking at the pictures on your website and thinking about the cooling problem, have you changed the radiator for a smaller one ?  The one on my car seems to be a bit wider, or at least the casing looks to be wider than the one on your car.

Going back to the topic of weight reduction, one thing that recently came to mind was the front hubs. Do you have alloy castings for the hub rather than the cast iron ?  I once had a Marcos and fitted alloy front hubs to that, they were quite a common thing a few years ago. Actually, thinking whilst writing that, it was probably 15yrs ago that I did that particular mod.

Anyway, back on topic. Nice to hear results, good or bad because everyone can learn something. And if racing was easy we'd all be doing it  :)

Brian
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: benbeames on Tuesday,August 21, 2012, 09:54:19 AM
My radiator is thicker then the one in your pictures too.  I talked to a guy a while back who used to race a Europa in the 1980's and he said he used to run two radiators in series.  One on the left and one on the right.  That always seemed like a somewhat easy mod (relatively speaking of course) to me if you need more cooling.

Ben
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: LotusJoe on Tuesday,August 21, 2012, 11:10:49 AM
One thing you might consider is that the temperature switch for the gauge is at the engine block, while the the otter switch for the fan is on the radiator. I would look at moving the otter switch for the fan to the engine block. That would cause the fan to activate earlier. Also I had a S-2 in the 70's that was always a challenge to cool. I ultimately built a duct from fiber glass that covered the the grill opening and then angled over to cover the entire radiator so that all the air from the front of the car was diverted to the radiator. I then made a small opening and ducted some air from there to the cabin fan. This helped immensely. The tandem radiators is also a good idea. There is also a seal that runs across the storage compatment lip that seals the lower compartment. It is usually fitted to the lid.

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: 3929R on Tuesday,August 21, 2012, 01:23:09 PM
the otter switch for the fan is on the radiator. I would look at moving the otter switch for the fan to the engine block. That would cause the fan to activate earlier...
I have a manual over ride switch for my radiator fan.  But my twink is driven on the street and I use the switch when in town or in traffic.  How much cooling effect does the fan have when driving at speed? and what are the slowest speeds when on the track?  Sorry, I'm clueless as I've never driven on a track, much less raced on one... 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: LotusJoe on Tuesday,August 21, 2012, 04:27:04 PM
There is a lot of air that goes throughout the front compartment when the front lid is closed. The fan obviously helps push air across the radiator at low speeds or when stopped. It also help maintain a constant flow of air when at speed. The air can go through the radiator opening or the slot between  the lip of the upper storage compartment or through the cabin fan opening. That is why it is important to make sure the foam gasket that is glued to the trunk lid is in place.  If you have removed the cabin fan that hole should be sealed.  Long ago I replaced my stock fan with a Spal pusher. It's been a while so I can't remember what size I used.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Wednesday,August 22, 2012, 02:14:53 AM
Hi,

nice to see that you all think about that problem :-) .
Our fan is a racing part, which is light and transports more air than the stock fan. It is started manually.
Two serial fans could have an effect. We will also try a bigger radiator (aluminium).

There is a lot of air running into the grill, while racing. The lowest speed is around 60 or 70 km/h and the fastest around 200 km/h. This depends on the race track. Some are better for the cooling and some are worse. But we want to be able to race on all tracks and at all weather conditions.

@LotusJoe: Was your airbox comparable with the air deflection, which we use in front boot?

Our front hubs are steel. There can we win a few kg's. How much kg's could that be?
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Wednesday,August 22, 2012, 03:32:13 AM
Hi,

these are the same type that I used. (this looks a private sale, I have no affiliation)

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listing/44190/triumph_herald_spitfire_alloy_front_hubs_with_studs.html (http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listing/44190/triumph_herald_spitfire_alloy_front_hubs_with_studs.html)

http://www.canleyclassics.com/?xhtml=xhtml/product/alloyhubs.html&xsl=product.xsl (http://www.canleyclassics.com/?xhtml=xhtml/product/alloyhubs.html&xsl=product.xsl)

I bought mine from Europa Spares many years ago, you bought a blank hub and they fitted the studs & PCD you wanted. They were expensive (compared to stock Triumph hubs) even then, but notably lighter because it's just aluminium vs cast iron. I don't know the weight saving but the SG of Al is roughly 1/3 steel so you could expect to save between 1/2 & 2/3 the weight of standard hubs.

Reading your comments on air flow speeds, it might be controversial but I can't see a fan making that much difference under normal running because you should have plenty of air going through. The call on the foam strip at the front boot is a good one, if that's not in place on the bonnet you will lose quite a lot of potential cooling air into the cabin or heater.

Brian
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: benbeames on Wednesday,August 22, 2012, 09:40:11 AM
Dang it!  I don't NEED aluminum hubs, but now that I know these are out there, I really want a pair. . . .   If only I got paid to work on my car.

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Wednesday,August 22, 2012, 03:06:02 PM
I would love some, too, but there is so much money, which must be spended for other things. We have essential problems, yet.
When we solved them, we are able to solve luxury problems like smaller weight reductions, by changing parts.

Maybe in winter, when our car, survived a three or four hours race again, we can attend to that :)

We want to finish on the next race without fail! After our good race in Hockenheim in April 2012, I already thought that our car is very dependable... It's not, but it will be soon!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Saturday,August 25, 2012, 12:40:03 PM
Hi Mecky,

I too am building a Lotus Europa race car, and my home track is Zolder, and I knew you were racing last week. However, I was away at university so I could come to take a look at your car.

I've also looked  at the fhr-langstreckencup as a race series for the future, however I need to look some more at all the regulations.

I'm building an Appendix K Period G2 race car. Your car isn't made to appendix K regulations, so you can make some more modifications and run a different engine than I would be using.

Do you find your oil cooler works fine in the rear? Because I was thinking to place mine in the front like the 47's had.

Also, what discs, pads and rear brake shoes are you using? I read you had some problem with the rear brakes, have you tried using another size master cylinder for the rear? And are you running a racing brake shoe? That could make a big difference.

Kind regards,

Serge
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Sunday,August 26, 2012, 04:08:33 AM
Hi Serge,

our car is made to FIA Appendix K regulations! Every car in FHR Langstreckencup is built to FIA App. K. Because we are using the crossflow engine, we have to race the Two-Seater-Racing-Car class instead of the "ordinary" GT class (we are classified in Period GR instead of G2). We can use the more powerful engine, but our class-opponents are very much better than in GT class.

Our oil cooler works well. Normally (when temperature is not at 35°C) we need to warm up the engine at least 30 minutes, before the race starts. If we don't warm it up that long, the oil temperature is much to low at the start.
In Zolder the oil temperature was too high, because the radiator was not able to cool the water good enough at this air temperature. The whole engine got very hot and the head gasket melted away.

We use the original brakes. Only at front we have racing brake pads from Ferrodo. Rear shoes are stock. We are going to test other master cylinders and racing shoes.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Sunday,August 26, 2012, 11:53:01 AM
Hi Mecky,


from the first look your car has a lot of modifications that would not be allowed in full appendix K regulations, in order to be able to obtain an FIA Historic Technical Passport. The engine is the biggest obstacle, others are the extended wheelarches, the modifications to the rear frame and driveshafts. And I believe you are running a Banks rollcage, that should also pose a problem, because it isn't FIA approved.

So the FHR championship does not require an FIA passport? That's good to know, then I might be able to race in your series and test some things before I go ahead and apply for an FIA passport, because once you have the passport the spec of your car is set in stone and it can't be changed anymore (unless you get a new passport)

My ultimate goal is to race the Spa 6 hours race in the future. But that's still a long way off!

Kind regards,

Serge



Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,August 27, 2012, 12:30:24 AM
Serge,

you are not allowed to start at FHR Cup without FIA HTP! Did I say the opposite? :confused:

Our car has a FIA HTP. In our HTP

- the engine is approved
- the extended wheelarches are approved
- the modification of the rear frame and driveshafts are approved (all that is shown on pictures in the HTP)

Everything, because we were able to proof to the FIA that in the period there were cars raced like our configuration is.

The roll cage kit from Banks can be set as "self-made roll cage" and our execution is approved, too.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Monday,August 27, 2012, 12:22:44 PM
Hi Mecky,

I must have misunderstood your post, my apologies!

Would it be possible to get a copy of your HTP and all the articles that you used to proof the modifications?

Then I would be able to apply some of the modifications on my car.

Thanks in advance,

Serge

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,August 28, 2012, 09:14:19 AM
You have got a PM.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,February 21, 2013, 09:11:11 AM
Hi guys,

unfortunately we were not able to go for another race in 2012. The new bigger radiator, which should come from England did not come fast enough and we still don't have it NOW :deadhorse: We will take one from another manufacturer.

We want to race at Hockenheim around the 20th April. I hope, we will be able to test the car at Zolder before that.

What about our new member twncmracer? It would be great, if you would tell us something about your racing experiences with the Europa. And I would like to learn something about your car's configuration. For example the brakes. As far as I read, you use wider discs and better drums. Are you happy with the breaking? How much does your car weigh? How much power and so on...

Maybe you could post some pictures. I would really like to have a look at the front boot.

Regards

Mecky
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,April 23, 2013, 01:52:12 AM
Hello guys,

Es geht wieder los! On this weekend we are going to race at the Hockenheimring. 44 cars have entered the race. In our class we have to race against Porsche 907, Chevron B8 and Lotus 23B. If non of these retire, we will come in fourth, but who knows what happens. Our aim is to increase the last years overall result (27th) and the fastest lap (2:13:2 min). That would mean that we would be one of the fastest 1600 cc cars in the competition. But the Elans and the 23B will be faster. Hopefully we will have no problem with the temperature anymore.

We had a Dyno-Test yesterday and the result was nice. 156 HP / 115 kW and 190 Nm torque. The little Renault seems to be in great shape.

I hope the best.

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Tuesday,April 23, 2013, 09:31:28 AM
Hi Stefan,

Is this your first race of 2013 ? I wish you well for the day because regardless of how it turns out it's just great to know that someone is still waving the flag for the Europa. 

I hope you'll take plenty of pictures over the race day, perhaps some in-car "Europacam" footage ? 

All the best Stefan, let's know how it goes.

Brian
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Wednesday,April 24, 2013, 01:09:42 AM
yes it is the first race of this season.
i already thought about making onboard (inboard ? :confused:) footage, but i am not sure how to fix the cam inside the car. it is not a high end product with tripod and stuff. racetape will help.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Wednesday,April 24, 2013, 09:31:30 AM
Gaffer tape to the side of your helmet !  (also called Duck tape or that very sticky cloth tape that seems to hold a lot of race cars together ! )

Thinking about it, if it's a frantic race the footage might be too shaky, so perhaps taping it on the bulkhead behind you would work ?

How big is the camera you're using, a normal camera or one of the small bullet style ones intended for taking footage during skiing/bungee jumping/freefall/etc ? I tried a traditional camcorder wedged against the bulkhead on a normal tripod once, but all that happened was I got some great footage of the headlining and then it fell over on the first corner.....   ::)

Brian
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,May 02, 2013, 12:14:17 AM
Hi guys,

the weekend was more than disappointing. At every run we had a new problem.
First practice: gear shifting -> solved
second practice: ignition failure over 5200 rpm -> new spark plugs
race: fuel pump

it was really embarrassing. Here is a symbol for our weekend: http://www.nim-fotos.de/_gal/var/resizes/2013/Gro%C3%9Fer-Preis-der-Stadt-Stuttgart---Samstag/IMG_7585%20%28Kopie%29.JPG?m=1367175777

 :deadhorse:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Saturday,May 04, 2013, 09:11:08 AM
Gee, I guess you're a bit down then ?  (good picture though, even if the angle isn't exactly where you'd like to be)

But hey Stefan, if racing was easy we'd all be doing it.  And look on the plus side;  you've now eliminated spark plugs, fuel pump and gears from letting you down next time ?  Chin up, when's the next round ?

Brian
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,June 13, 2013, 02:03:48 AM
Hi Brian,

next round appears to be at 19. - 21. July. Not completely sure, if we are going to take part. Also the damn head gasket blew again. We are going to take another block. It looks like one of the cylinders droped down a few tenth of mm...

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Thursday,June 13, 2013, 07:01:55 AM

Hi Stefan,


I hope you'll be able to fix the problems with the engine. Are you using the strengthened head gaskets from mecaparts?

If you're racing the Europa at Zolder on august 16-18 I might come out to check the racing and the car if possible. It will depend on my schedule at that time, but Zolder is really close (just a 30min drive).


Kind regards,


Serge
#460002
http://sleurs-motorsport.com/
http://www.youtube.com/sleursmotorsport
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,June 13, 2013, 01:42:57 PM
Hi Serge,

we are using a head gasket from Elring, which is recommended by Renault Schäfer Tuning, which is the most succesful and experienced tuning factory for historic Renault engines in Germany. They never told us that the mecaparts gasket would be better. We are going to ask them...

It depends on how it goes in July at Spa-Francorchamps, if we are racing at Zolder.

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Wednesday,July 24, 2013, 01:38:34 AM
Hi there,

our new engine was built by Renault Schäfer Tuning. It ran about 10 hours on an engine-dyno. I hope that it is an endurance engine now...

We did not take part at Spa. The car is not ready. There are stil some issues with the fuel system and the ignition. Probably we are also not going to take part at Zolder, because there is to little time until that race to prepare the car properly.

Our target appears to be the RGB Saisonfinale at the Nürburgring GP-Course around the 5th October. Then we will have enough time to prepare the car in best running order (at least I hope so). If there will be another problem at that race, it would have to be an absolutely new problem. We are not taking chances anymore. The disgrace from Hockenheim was more than enough. I could still :blowup: while thinking about that race.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Wednesday,October 16, 2013, 03:42:06 AM
Ready to race, but we won't enter one without detailed testing. Because of that we didn't enter a second race this year. The tests will be in March/April and the next race at late April 2014. I posted a few new pictures in the thread "What does your Europa look like *today* ?".
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Friday,October 18, 2013, 02:59:19 PM

Hi Stefan,


glad to hear that your Europa is back up and running. Hopefully you'll have more success this year.

I was doing some research for ordering the parts needed to finish my braking system. Richard at Banks has sold me his racing pads and shoes. He has also suggested I used a 0.625 master cylinder in the front and a 0.7 in the rear.

Now you have mentioned before that you had some trouble with the rear drum brakes. Have you had any luck trying to fix this? Are you also using the competition shoes from Richard?

Now I might have found something to improve this 'delay' that you mentioned before the rear brakes start working. Are you using a residual pressure valve? If not, this might improve the rear brakes a lot. A 10 PSI residual pressure valve is typically used for drum brakes. What this does, is it will give a constant 10 PSI pressure towards the drum brakes, this will make sure that the force of the return springs in the drums won't push all of the brake fluid all the way back to the master cylinder. They are highly recommended to be used with drums at all times, many OEM master cylinders for drum brakes have them already built in.

You can also use a 2PSI residual pressure valve for disc brakes, but they will have a more pronounced effect if the master cylinder is at, or below the level of the calipers.

This is a link to a PDF file from wilwood with some more info: http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds100.pdf (http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds100.pdf)

I'm not sure if this information can help you, but I will be installing a residual pressure valve in my race car (Definitely in the rear circuit, still doubting on the fronts)


Kind regards,

Serge
#460002
http://sleurs-motorsport.com/ (http://sleurs-motorsport.com/)
http://youtube.com/sleursmotorsport (http://youtube.com/sleursmotorsport)



 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,October 22, 2013, 07:46:45 AM
Hi Serge,

thank you for caring about my problems :-) But the problem with the rear brake was not about too much pedal travel or that i had to pump the pedal's pressure up. Because of that, I don't think that I need these residual valves.

Last year I used one master cylinder with two circles (0,75"). It was the same one as in the Porsche 911 from 1969, which has a great breaking performance. But this did not work very well. The Porsche has discs all around. The rear breaking of the Europa was insufficient. The brake shoes were as good as new after a three-hour-race. I tried to check the brake's effect in the workshop. When somebody stood on the brake and it was impossible to turn the front wheels, it was still not difficult to turn the rear ones.

In last winter I installed two different master cylinders (front: 0,7", rear: 0,625") and a balance bar system from Wilwood. I checked it again and rear braking seemed to be equal to front. Unfortunately I was not able to test it in a competition situation, because I had not even one lap with racing speed at the last race. So I'm still not sure, how to set the brakes up, yet. But it's interesting that Richard recommended the inverse master cylinder configuration that I am using. I am also using street shoes at the rear brakes.

Something good at the last race was that the braking was much more balanced than last year. In Hockenheim 2012 the front wheels stood immediately, while braking in rain. In 2013 there was never any standing wheel, while braking in rain. Although it was very slippery and I was not able to get the tyres warm.

What effect would it have, when I would switch the configuration of the master cylinders? I think that it would cause the fronts to break harder and the rears to brake less... But it that thought correct?

Best regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Tuesday,October 22, 2013, 09:34:09 AM

Hi Stefan,


I could be mistaken and accidentally reversed what Richard said. The smaller the diameter, the higher the pressure, so it could be that it would be the other way round and that he said 0.625 rear and 0.7 front and that will match your experiences for the fronts to brake a little bit less hard than the rears at the same pedal travel. If you want to be sure, just call Richard, He'll be happy to help.

He also said that I had to use the competition brake shoes, even when just doing some trackdays, because the normal shoe material wouldn't stand up to the heat. I will also use a balance bar to balance the front and rear brakes out.


Kind regards,

Serge


 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Sunday,October 27, 2013, 07:32:06 AM
I'll get competition brake shoes as well. They defininetly can't be useless.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Sunday,October 27, 2013, 08:13:44 AM
I'll have to call Richard tomorrow anyway, I'll double check the size of the master cylinders and I'll let you know what he says.


Kind regards,

Serge

Edit: Sorry Stefan, I had Richard on the line today and I forgot to ask!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Sunday,November 03, 2013, 07:00:12 AM
Hi you guys,
how are you?
This year was the funniest for me.
here some picture form the Coppa Intereuropa in Monza:
some problem with heat (all race at 100°C), but for the rest all fine.
Standard brakes with Race pads from Banks 
11th overall on 22th entrants afer 3 hours reace.
super fun!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Sunday,November 03, 2013, 08:45:59 AM
That is one very nice car. From the photos the finish would do credit to a road car, let alone one that's tearing around a racetrack.

Excellent - thanks for posting the pictures.

Brian
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Sunday,November 03, 2013, 03:30:32 PM
Hi Valerio,

glad to meet you at this forum. How went your season 2013? Ours went very badly.

Your car is a real beauty! The body is so clean and looks like it would be new. Our car needs a little body repair and a new paint, but we decided to make it run well at first and when that is done - hopefully now - we can spend money for the body maybe after season 2014.

It would be nice to see more pictures of your car. I would like to have a look at interiour, front boot and engine compartment. Maybe a few details and/or technical data would be great, as well. How well are you able to compete in GTS1600 class? I guess, you are much more often able to race for class victory than we are. As I already told you, we have to race in TSRC2000 class against for example Porsche 907. But nevertheless driving the Europa on track is really great fun.

Best regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,November 04, 2013, 08:35:46 AM
Ciao Stefan,

good to hear from you.
2013 was very positive, the endurance in Monza was really fun.
I won the class...as I was alone into it.   :FUNNY:
I am thinking to change into TSRC but I am not sure so far.
That would involve to change the body and I don feel like now.
here some figures:

1508cc
cam 35 65 65 35 as the standard
Two DCNF 40 weber
4 into 1 header
Special valves train
90 HP on the wheel
wheels 6J13 front; 7J13 rear
Tyres Dunlop racing M section all around 4.5 front; 5.25 rear.ù

No story for me. look what kind of opponents I had:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5xFkpIYWHw

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,November 04, 2013, 09:04:42 AM
Oh deer,

there is a 2 litre Porsche 911, a Ferrari 365 Daytona with 4,4 litres and an Alfa Romeo GTAm with 2 litres. All the other cars are Two-Seater Racing Cars or Prototypes. And most of them have much more than 2 litres displacement. That is more than a tough competition for the little Europa. Even a Porsche 917 K is running there.
Wouldn't you like to enter a race series, which is more concentrated on GT and touringcars? There you would be able to have close fights against cars with similar power. Most of these monsters from the race in Monza must have more than 300 HP. And some of them even 500 HP and more...

Best regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Monday,November 04, 2013, 01:37:39 PM


I agree Stefan,

I am building my car to the same specs as Valerio's car in the hope to be able to run a GT championship. However, many of the GT championships are either pre-65 or post-65 and I wouldn't want to run in the same race as post-72 escorts and Porsches, that's just not a fair race. The race Valerio entered at Monza was for prototypes and GT's between 1962 and 1972, but the little Europa is lost between the big prototypes.

However I know that the German series that you race in allows period G2 GT cars, so that might be an option for the future. Also the Spa 6 hour endurance race has a class for G1 and G2 cars, and entering that race would be a dream come true.

The Belgian Historic series is mixed with the youngtimers and doesn't have a level playing field. The Dutch championship is also Pre-65.

I am sticking to my little 1600cc wedge head engine and I'll find a series to race it in.


Kind regards,

Serge

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,November 05, 2013, 01:45:37 AM
Hej Hej Serge,

good decision, but let me just point out something:

even if the six hours is open to period G in reality this race is Always in overbooking. So that they prefer to fullfill the race of pre '65 cars.

the others races where our GT is more than welcome are:
Nurburgring trophy (only for period G)at  nurburgring nordschleife in oldtimer grand prix in August.
Tour de France auto where we are among the "elegibles" (a Lotus europa raced in 1972)
Targa Florio (the lotus of Mr. Sebastiani and Mr. Nardini raced in 1970). Unfotunately there in Sicily they are not able to organize anything concrete.... you know...Italians....not like us Swedish  :beerchug:

Tour de France 1972
Targa Florio 1970
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,November 05, 2013, 02:30:08 AM
Hi chaps,

here you can find two more pictures of the Targa Florio car from 1970: http://www.bndlg.de/~mditz/europa_3.htm (http://www.bndlg.de/~mditz/europa_3.htm)

And here is the race's result: http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Targa_Florio-1970-05-03.html?sort=Results (http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Targa_Florio-1970-05-03.html?sort=Results)

The Europa finished 47th overall and 7th in GT1600 class.

Best regards

Stefan

EDIT: Two more interesting links:
 http://www.targapedia.com/album_targa_florio/1969_1977/1970/TARGA%20FLORIO%201970%20-%20LOTUS/slides/194%20Lotus%2047%20Europa%201600%20%20Stefano%20Sebastiani%20-%20Roberto%20Nardini%20%281%29.html (http://www.targapedia.com/album_targa_florio/1969_1977/1970/TARGA%20FLORIO%201970%20-%20LOTUS/slides/194%20Lotus%2047%20Europa%201600%20%20Stefano%20Sebastiani%20-%20Roberto%20Nardini%20%281%29.html)

http://www.targapedia.com/album_modellismo_TF/1969_1977/1970/MINI%20TARGA%20FLORIO%201970%20-%20LOTUS/slides/194%20Lotus%20Europa%20-%20Dinky%20Toys%201.43%20%285%29.html
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,November 05, 2013, 02:38:18 AM
Stefan,

with your TSRC you can join the Master Series!!!! I woud love it.
well... I had such a fun sharing the track with these cars...
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,November 05, 2013, 03:08:22 AM
Hi Valerio,

I know that, but at least now I don't want to join for example the CER or similar competitions, because the Europa must show its reliability first. Maybe when the Europa has seen the checkered flag in some endurance races and when the body is nicely repaired, we could think about entering such a race with this kind of great opponents. But even if we set up the car at its best and are driving really fast, we still would not be very competative there...

That's why we like the FHR endurance cup. There are most of the opponents GT and touringcars and our Europa is fast enough to finish in the top 15 or at least top 20 of mostly more than 50 cars, if it's able to run properly over the whole three hours. And even there you have great opponents on track. For example in Spa 2012: http://www.motorhome1.de/index.php/foto-navigation/spa-francorchamps/foto-navigation/spa-francorchamps/spa-francorchamps-2012/race-festival-spa/fhr-langstrecken-trophy-htgt?page=1#category (http://www.motorhome1.de/index.php/foto-navigation/spa-francorchamps/foto-navigation/spa-francorchamps/spa-francorchamps-2012/race-festival-spa/fhr-langstrecken-trophy-htgt?page=1#category). Porsche 907, Ford GT40, Chevron B16, Lotus 23 B, BMW 3,0 CSL, Mercedes 300 SL (wing doors) and the greatest Renault Alpine A110 I've ever seen. This Alpine is prepared and raced by the Renault tuner, who made our engine, as well. And his A110 was faster than all the great cars, which I named before!

Best regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,November 05, 2013, 03:52:09 AM
I didn't know FHR series do you have a link?
CER is one of my dream, and here you can even enter as GTS.
They are pricy thou, like 2000 euro entry fee!
Master is like half and is a FIA official event.
I really don't know what to do, and so I stop thinking about.

The Wedge engine has a great lack of power, mostly due to a really bad port design.
Potentialy it could get 160HP but we should work a lot and spend a bunch of money to figure out how to squeeze out HorsePower from a donky...

The Cross Flow engine is already developed and Carcreff has reached 160 HP on a very reliable version.
 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,November 05, 2013, 04:44:44 AM
Hi Valerio,

our series is the Dunlop FHR Long Distance Cup (German: Dunlop FHR Langstreckencup). As they say, it is the world's biggest Endurance race series for historic race cars made after FIA Appendix K. And it is an official FIA approved international race series.
It offers the possibility to race cars from period E, F, G, GR and touringcars from period H. That means every car from 1947 - 1971 and also touringcars from 1972 - 1975 are allowed (but not the Porsche 3,0 RSR for example). Here is the link: http://www.fhr-langstreckencup.de/ (http://www.fhr-langstreckencup.de/)
The entry fee per race is between 750 € - 1000 € per race and to enter the championship, you have to pay around 600 € before the season starts.

Our engine has 158 HP and a torque of 181 Nm. And it ran already 10 hours on the dyno. With the cars weight of 669 kg it should go quite fast. Do you know your cars weight? I would love to see some detailed pictures of your Europa.

Best regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Friday,November 08, 2013, 12:29:51 AM
Hi boys,

a man from Germany contacted me and told me that he is going to race his Europa in the GT1600 class of the FHR Long Distance Cup in 2014.
After lots of years without any Europa, there could be a glut of Europas in the next few years. :beerchug:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,November 08, 2013, 08:05:25 AM
this is a good news, any photos?
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Friday,November 08, 2013, 02:08:49 PM

There is also someone in Sweden building an S1 race car, I have seen some pictures and it looks very nice!

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Friday,November 08, 2013, 05:55:33 PM
The Europa from Germany is still being restored. I just saw a picture of the body been taken off from the chassis. Maybe the owner will join this Forum soon. I recommended it to him.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Saturday,November 09, 2013, 04:55:26 AM
Maybe the owner will join this Forum soon. I recommended it to him.

This is a good idea, Serge you could suggest the same to that guy in Sweden.
we can build up a kind of race comunity here.

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,November 19, 2013, 12:51:44 AM
hehehehe,

look at what I have found.
this is a lotus 46 racing at Chamrous early 70's.
nice FIA configuration hein?



Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,November 19, 2013, 02:48:05 AM
This is great! Do you know, what kind of race that was and the date and maybe an entry list or result?
:huh:
Are you sure, that is not a Type 47?
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,November 19, 2013, 03:19:46 AM
Ciao Stefan,

this was a hill climb in France.

Course de cote Chamrousse
the driver is Jean Jacques Cochet
early 70 may be 1971 or 1972.
I have no entry list, unfortunately.
we could ask to the oganizers since this race still nowadays.

It is not a 47, since this is never been built as LHD.



 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,November 19, 2013, 03:56:28 AM
Hi Valerio,

I think, I have to disappoint you. http://www.racingsportscars.com/driver/archive/Jacques-Cochet-CH.html (http://www.racingsportscars.com/driver/archive/Jacques-Cochet-CH.html) Jacques Cochet drove a Type 47. He had VIN 47-GT-73. This car is LHD. http://lotus-europa2.com/picview.asp?page=47-GT-73 (http://lotus-europa2.com/picview.asp?page=47-GT-73)

Also, I have never seen a Type 46 with central locking wheels.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,November 19, 2013, 04:51:59 AM
 :headbanger:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Thursday,April 03, 2014, 05:47:09 AM
Ciao Mecky,

how is going with your Europa?
Mine is sleeping under a cashmere blanket this year.
....waiting to decide what to do.
   ^-^
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,April 07, 2014, 03:24:22 PM
We had a dyno test last week, but the clutch was not able to cope with the engine's torque above 4800 revs.  :pirate:

We have to use a strengthened racing clutch now. But we are not sure, if we are taking part at the first race on 27th April. It's more likely that we race in July at Spa for the first time.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: skwiz on Thursday,April 10, 2014, 02:42:19 AM
Hi there,

I am french and owner of a 1968 Europa S1A (type 46). I also bought this car with the plan to race it in classic endurances, and as I am finishing the strip down (chassis is going to be removed soon) I am turning my work toward HTP regulations.
You can't imagine how happy I am to have found this forum as I couldn't find any renault powered europa that raced before.
So to any of you who would have informations to provide that would help me prepare my car and a file for the FIA app K, I'd be really happy if you could send my as much details as you have in PM or mail.
To Mecky and Valerio, may you additionally send me a copy of your HTP.
Valerio, what is the type of your car, is it also a type 46 ? I think I read you have a 1500cc (so 1470 then) ?
Serge, how about your europa version ? Have you succeeded in getting a HTP ? Any feedback ?

Thank you in advance for all your help, my plans are to finish my car this year and start racing in 2015 is everything is fine !
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Bainford on Thursday,April 10, 2014, 05:46:53 AM
 :Welcome: Welcome to the forum, skwiz. I can't help you personally but there are some very knowledgable people here that can probably offer assistance. Cheers, and good luck.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,April 10, 2014, 09:15:20 AM
Do you want to race the car in gt category against alfa romeo 1600 gtv or in two-seater-racing-car category against Porsche 907 and ford gt 40?

that depends on your engine. you can run as gt only with the Renault 697 engine (1470 ccm wedge head) and tsrc with the Renault 807 engine (1565 ccm crossflow).
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Thursday,April 10, 2014, 11:26:53 AM
Ciao skwiz,

Mecky is running as TCRS  period GR with a renault 16TS engine with 2 webers ( basically the same engine of the alpine 1600S).
This is not an homologated cars but it is a prototype that raced at Zeltweg on 1968.

I am running as GTS period G2. Here you cannot modify almost anyting in your engine. I just realize that my modifications are not allow as i have not any period proof.

That's not fun at all but at least I can race on nice event like the Tour Auto, Spa 6 Heures, and Nurburgring trophy at the historic oltimer grand prix.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: skwiz on Thursday,April 10, 2014, 02:56:00 PM
Bonjour Valerio, hello Bainford and Mecky,

At first I would look for how much I am alowed to modify it with the 1470 in for the GTS class.
=> very little I know, but that would be already fnice to be allowed to race it on these famous tracks !! I guess it is at least possible to slighty improve engine perf provided that it is discrete !

But I am also interested in informations and pictures for the homologation in  TCRS class as it was my original plan to go for a 1600s engine (I already bought a r16TX with 2 weber for that purpose).

I would like to have all the details, measure the pros and cons of both choices before to take final decision.

For exemple, if I would go for the TCRS, do I understand that engine tunning is free !? (provided that it is composed of components used by the proper time !). Also as I have a S1, does it mean that I would have to convert chassis mounting to S2 bolted system or should I keep it as it is. How much information do you have Mecky on that car that raced in Zeltweg ?

At first stage, before to hear about the actual homologation process, I was willing to have my car looking like a type 47 (with lateral tank traps and air intake, slightly larger wheel arches and larger wheels, and power it with a finely tuned 1596cc).

Now I wonder if that's not better to keep it stock to start with... I could still convert it for the TCRS latter ! But I am interested in you opinions as Mecky seems to feel bored to fight with too big cars and Valerio to have a no enought efficient car due to stock restriction...
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Thursday,April 10, 2014, 10:44:03 PM
Bonjour Skwiz,

I would suggest at first to read the appendix K

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/2014_Appendix%20K_WEB%20(131220).pdf

in specially the introduction where is written:

"Historic competition is not simply another formula in which to acquire
trophies, it is a discipline apart, in which one of the essential
ingredients is a devotion to the cars and to their history. Historic
Motor Sport enables the active celebration of the History of the
Motor Car".

then you must accept the fact that you can never be a front runner with an Europa in any configuration. Not even a 47 is nowaday a front runner.
 
you must also have clear which kind of event you want to join, for GT or TCRS.

then you can start spend some money.

for example I suggest  (if you want to race in TCRS) to buy an already made engine Alpine from the specialists in France. You will end up to spend much less than modify your R16TX.
here you can also make some modification to the body (lateral air scoop and larger fenders)
You will have much fun with 160 HP in your back!!
You will not be allowed to join some races like "tour de france auto" or "the spa 6 heures" or "targa florio"
You can join instead some race series like the masterseries or CER.

In case you want to race in GTS the only modification allowed is inside the engine (camshaft, pistons, valves and ported head).
in fact there is no period proof you can use modified manifolds and/or carburettor/s.
here you can also use larger wheels but you cannot modify the body.
Here nobody has develop this 1470 enought so far.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Friday,April 11, 2014, 05:02:11 AM
Bonjour Valerio, hello Bainford and Mecky,

At first I would look for how much I am alowed to modify it with the 1470 in for the GTS class.
=> very little I know, but that would be already fnice to be allowed to race it on these famous tracks !! I guess it is at least possible to slighty improve engine perf provided that it is discrete !

But I am also interested in informations and pictures for the homologation in  TCRS class as it was my original plan to go for a 1600s engine (I already bought a r16TX with 2 weber for that purpose).

I would like to have all the details, measure the pros and cons of both choices before to take final decision.

For exemple, if I would go for the TCRS, do I understand that engine tunning is free !? (provided that it is composed of components used by the proper time !). Also as I have a S1, does it mean that I would have to convert chassis mounting to S2 bolted system or should I keep it as it is. How much information do you have Mecky on that car that raced in Zeltweg ?

At first stage, before to hear about the actual homologation process, I was willing to have my car looking like a type 47 (with lateral tank traps and air intake, slightly larger wheel arches and larger wheels, and power it with a finely tuned 1596cc).

Now I wonder if that's not better to keep it stock to start with... I could still convert it for the TCRS latter ! But I am interested in you opinions as Mecky seems to feel bored to fight with too big cars and Valerio to have a no enought efficient car due to stock restriction...
I speak from the TSRC view:
It's no problem that your car is an S1. The car in Zeltweg was just entered as Lotus Europa with 1600 ccm. On the pictures you can see the flared wheel arches and the valve cover of the crossflow head inside the engine compartment. That's about it.

You would be free to tune your engine up to 1600 ccm. If you race the engine, you have to change lots of parts like the camshaft and the shaft, which turns the distributor. The gear-wheels of that parts are not strong enough to survive very long. The stock valve springs and piston rods are not able to survive a longer time of 6000 rpm. If you have a used engine, I would recommend to use new cylindres and pistons. When you go up to 1596 ccm you should use racing parts and maybe a lighter crank shaft. The head gasket alone is 130 €...

- crankshaft 600 €
- rods 1000 €
- cylindres & pistons 700 €
- valve springs 75 €
- valves 200 €
- camshaft 300 €
- distributor shaft, bearings, gaskets...

We gave all the parts to the Renault tuner and the assembly of OUR parts was 3800 €. Cylindre head and block must be improved and adapted. A well made 807 racing engine is about 7000 €. On our last dyno test we had 156 HP and 670 kg. Then you need a racing clutch and after some time a racing gearbox. The stock gearbox is going to collapse sooner or later, because it was engineered for just 80 HP. A 697 engine would be much cheaper.

On the upside you can use wide rims and tyres, because of the flares. You are faster as every "ordinary" Europa, but never as fast as an Elan or Type 47. And you direct opponents are much, much faster: Porsche 907 with 220 HP and 600 kg, Chevron B16 with up to 275 HP and 590 kg, Lotus 23B with 190 HP and 450 kg... You will always come in last in class, if nobody retires. If you are in a race with TSRC, touring cars and GTs you will be able to have some fun racing the touring cars and GTs. Not more, not less.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,April 11, 2014, 05:44:33 AM
A 697 engine would be much cheaper.

well...not exactly much...

I've made a calculation, using my existing engine (697) a full tuning would end up at 8000 euros.
here may be but I'm not sure you can reach 95/100HP



The Alpine engine from a specialist (160CV) is for sale at 9.600 euros new and guarantee.
Then you need:
header 600 euros
intake manifols 250 euros
carburettors weber 45 DCOE+linkage 1000 euros (tuned)
Distributor 400 euros
tot around 12000 euros.

tune up an R16 TS engine will end up at 10000 euros all included but...guarantee by yourself.

 :lotus:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Friday,April 11, 2014, 06:09:22 AM
I read about this guy in the American Lotus Talk, who tuned his 697 wedge head engine up to 145 HP...
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f221/new-old-europa-racer-type-54-a-101330/ (http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f221/new-old-europa-racer-type-54-a-101330/)
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: skwiz on Friday,April 11, 2014, 06:19:24 AM
I bought this r16TX because it was cheap:
1000€ with two weber 40 and... an amazing aluminium valve cover for 1600cc that you can see here:
http://www.forum-auto.com/automobiles-mythiques-exception/section5/sujet381787-3710.htm

(this is a french forum gathering lot of europa owners, but nobody is racing any...)

But if necessary I would start with another engine... I didn't thought about budget at first (although you are right, it's an important point to take into account in the decision !) but rather about where I will be alowed to race...

This is something I didn't quite get in the homologation process:
We are alowed to race ONLY where we found a car that raced ?
(or does the HTP give access to any international classic race).

Because Mecky you said that with TCRS homologation I could race CER, and when I look at CER website:
http://peterauto.peter.fr/en/evenement/presentation/id/41/nom/Grand%20Prix%20de%20l'Age%20d'Or
we car see in events that it includes LE MANS, SPA, TOUR AUTO,... did the car raced in all these places ? If no are we still alowed to race there ?

If you add up the masterseries tracks it's a lot !!
http://www.themastersseries.com/event-information

(I guess it would be in the FIA MASTERS HISTORIC SPORT CARS CHAMPIONSHIP race-series).

How about GTS available races. I read TOUR AUTO and SPA (TARGA FLORIO is not raced anymore :-( ), what else ?

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,April 11, 2014, 06:28:32 AM
Thank you Mecky for the link!!
very!

well I was thinking to prepare my wedge in the same way, I contacted a FIAT specialist here in Italy.
Our main issue is the poor port design as per FIAT 128/X1/9 engines.
Porting, putting larger valves and bench flowing could add a load of steam.
The problem still the header and the carburettor.
Following the appendix K it seems you cannot improve this part without prof of the fact that the same modification has been used back in the time during an international competition.
Now I contacted mr Sebastiani who raced with an Europa in Targa Florio 1970. Let's see...
Serge also told me he is sending me some documents.
 
 :BBQ:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,April 11, 2014, 06:50:38 AM
I bought this r16TX because it was cheap:
1000€ with two weber 40 and... an amazing aluminium valve cover for 1600cc that you can see here:
http://www.forum-auto.com/automobiles-mythiques-exception/section5/sujet381787-3710.htm

(this is a french forum gathering lot of europa owners, but nobody is racing any...)

But if necessary I would start with another engine... I didn't thought about budget at first (although you are right, it's an important point to take into account in the decision !) but rather about where I will be alowed to race...

This is something I didn't quite get in the homologation process:
We are alowed to race only where we found a car that raced ?

Because Mecky you said that with TCRS homologation I could race CER, and when I look at CER website:
http://peterauto.peter.fr/en/evenement/presentation/id/41/nom/Grand%20Prix%20de%20l'Age%20d'Or
we car see in events that it includes LE MANS, SPA, TOUR AUTO,... did the car raced in all these places ? If no are we still alowed to race there ?

If you add up the masterseries tracks it's a lot !!
http://www.themastersseries.com/event-information

(I guess it would be in the FIA MASTERS HISTORIC SPORT CARS CHAMPIONSHIP race-series).

How about GTS available races. I read TOUR AUTO and SPA (TARGA FLORIO is not raced anymore :-( ), what else ?

Well... it depend.
in some competition you can race only if a model of your car raced into it back in the time.
On this case you are not allowed to race at Le Mans Historic not in any configuration GT or TCRS

You can race at the Tour de France Auto the car is among les elegibles (as GT but not as TCRS)

You can race at the Spa Six Heures (as GT). Here you will have an "invitation class" for "trophee eau rouge". the actual Six Heures Trophy is only for pre 66 cars.
At this event in the weekend you could also race one hour race (TCRS or GT). In fact there is a spot for the masterseries. But the Six Hour race is "The Event"

You could race in Targa Florio (as GT)... But les Italiens are not smart enought to organize....

As GT you can race at the Oltimer Grand prix at Nurburgring Nordschleife (Nurburgring trophy).

CER is a series as well as Masterseries here you could race both in GT or TCRS but it is preferable that you ask them before spend money.

Mecky is racing in an intresting series in germany called FHR!!
 


 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Friday,April 11, 2014, 07:25:46 AM
I agree, if you are in Europe the German run (but races are all over Europe) FHR cup (http://www.fhr-langstreckencup.de/) is a very nice race series to participate in. A lot of historic race series only allow cars pre-66, but the german one allows a bit younger cars without having to race with all of the youngtimers.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: skwiz on Friday,April 11, 2014, 07:40:38 AM
Thank you Valerio for this detailed answer, you may have forgotten Monza in GTS as you said earlier in this topics that you raced there !

From what you said

in some competition you can race only if a model of your car raced into it back in the time.

I would understand about the two series (CER or mastersseries) that we are able to take part in these championships only in the races our car is entitled for, and the reverse would not be true (entering the CER championship does NOT give automatic eligibility to all the races, especially not to LE MANS...).

Can anyone confirm my deduction ?
If so would you mind helping me in making the most complete list as possible of the races eligibility for both the GTS and TCRS

GTS:
You can race at the Tour de France Auto the car is among les elegibles (as GT but not as TCRS)

You can race at the Spa Six Heures (as GT). Here you will have an "invitation class" for "trophee eau rouge". the actual Six Heures Trophy is only for pre 66 cars.
At this event in the weekend you could also race one hour race (TCRS or GT). In fact there is a spot for the masterseries. But the Six Hour race is "The Event"

As GT you can race at the Oltimer Grand prix at Nurburgring Nordschleife (Nurburgring trophy).

You could race in Targa Florio (as GT)... But les Italiens are not smart enought to organize....

We could add Monza in the Coppa Intereuropa

Anyone knows another one ?


How about TCRS Mecky, where are you entitled to race ?

I guess you can enter all the FHR endurance cup tracks:
- SPA
- Hockenheimring
- Nürburgring GP and Nordschleife
- Zolder in belgium
?

Which ones of the CER are you also looking for ?
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,April 11, 2014, 08:13:56 AM
The coppa Intereuropa at Monza is not running this year.
We hope for the next one.  :blowup:

Just to be clear:
in Europe you can race into a series or you can race in a single event.

the series like CER (organize by Peter Auto) this year will have a slot (the possiblity to race into a big event with a dedicaded grid) in the following meeting:

Mugello Classic Italy
SPA classic Belgium
Grand prix de l'age d'or (dijon) France
Dix mille tour a le Castelet France
Algarve classic Portugal

entry fee is 2200 euros each race

the same the master series will race:

Barcelona – 4/5/6 April   (Q: 1 x 45 min, R: 1 x 60 min) - £1100
Donington classic – 3/4/5 May  (Q: 1 x 30  min, R: 1 x 60 min) - £1100
Brands Hatch GP – 24/25 May  (Q: 1 x 30 min, R: 2 x 30 min) - £950
Brno – 4/5/6 July  (Q: 1 x 30 min, R: 1 X 60 min) - £1100
Silverstone classic – 25/26/27 July   (Q: 1 x 30 min, R: 1 x 50 min) - £1175 
Nurburgring oldtimer grand prix– 8/9/10 August   (Q: 1 x 30 min, R: 2 X 30 min) - £950
Zandvoort classic– 29/30/31 August (Q: 1 x 35 min, R: 1 X 60 min) - £950
Spa-Francorchamps Spa six hours – 19/20/21 September  (Q: 1 x 40 min, R: 1 X 61 min) - £1100
Jerez – 10/11/12 October  (Q: 1 x 40 min, R: 1 X 60 min) - £1100 

In both series you can enter your Europa as GTS or TCRS.


Spa Six Hours, Le Mans Classic, Tour de France Auto and Nurburgring Marathon are indipendent  races (big events) that you can join if your car is elegible ( for Le Mans and Tour Auto) or (for  Six Hour race)  if your car is invited.
On those Races our Europa (GT) can race all the events except the Le mans Classic
 



Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Saturday,April 12, 2014, 02:19:56 AM
No TSRC car is allowed on the Nürburgring Nordschleife. No matter if it is Ford GT40 or our tiny little Lotus Europa S2. The TSRC category of the FHR Langstreckencup races only at Hockenheim, Spa, Zolder and Nürburgring GP this year. There is also the FHR HTGT Trophy ( http://fhr-online.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=74&lang=1 (http://fhr-online.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=74&lang=1) ), which mostly takes part at the same events, but not on the Nordschleife and with just one hour race distance.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Saturday,April 12, 2014, 09:44:12 AM
Well, this is a good reason to stay on GTS class.
Racing at Nürburgring Nordschleife is a dream...

ok, let pass into the kitchen  :BBQ:

 
I would like to prepare a new motor 697:

Engine block with lightened crankshaft and flywheel
Lightened rods
Domed pistons CR  11.5/1 bored to 78.9mm
Cubic capacity 1598
Alloy sump with bigger oil pump
Camshaft profile 43 73 67 37 11.5mm lift
Adjustable vernier
Ported head bench flowed
Valve train intake 40 exhaust 33
competition clutch

I will contact drivers in Italy, and if possible I would like to get in contact with Jerry Blaine, an American driver that raced in Group 4 back on 1970 in Europe.

My goal is to get photos of those race cars to proof the period specification

 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Saturday,April 12, 2014, 04:34:07 PM
Seems like a good choice for engine upgrades. I think the 11.5:1 compression will be a bit better than the 13.5:1 you have now, it seems too high to me?

Also, I don't think you need to prove the internal specification of your engine. As long as you obey the 1971 Appendix J for engine modifications, you will be OK. Maybe that they want you to prove the DCNF carburetors? But as you already have an HTP, I wouldn't look for trouble where there isn't any.

I will tell you what I have so far for my engine, but it still needs to be built.
- custom Crower conrods
- alloy sump
- lightened steel flywheel (it's being made as we speak)

I will be having my 821 head completely flowed and bench-tested, bigger valves if he thinks it will help.
He will also help me choose my cam profile (or design a new one)
I'm hoping to use the standard clutch, but maybe a better friction material.
I was hoping to make a spacer for the oil pump (for the bigger rotor) if I can't find a bigger oil pump housing. Has anyone did this before for a renault engine? It is quite common on american V8s I read.

Serge

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Sunday,April 13, 2014, 12:36:50 AM
Ciao Serge,
I am having a national HTP.
Basically they did't ask me any proof, but I' pretty sure that if I ask an international FIA HTP they will follow this appendix K article:

3.3 period specification

3.3.3 «Alternative components» can either be period components that are not coming from the original installation of the car make (for ex. original components from period suppliers) and replica components (for ex. replica of original components from the car make installation or replica of original components from period suppliers).
Alternative components to the original manufacturer’s specifications can only be used if it is proven that these components were allowed by the period Appendix J and/or homologation form applicable to the car concerned and, in both cases, used in that model of car in a Competition entered on the FIA International Sporting Calendar in the period.
Freedoms granted in period by Appendix J do not now confer complete freedom but rather authorise the use of modifications and/ or components actually and legally used in period on the particular make and model as a result of those period freedoms.

3.3.7 For homologated cars, original FIA homologation papers, with such extensions and variations, as were homologated in the period concerned are valid.
In addition, the rules of Appendix J of the period are valid if they cover a specification used in period as written in Article 3.3.8 for non- homologated cars.
All cars of Period J1 must also comply with Appendix XI of Appendix K.
3.3.8 For non-homologated cars, the following evidence (given in order of priority) may be admitted to prove period specification.....

So You must proof that a specific modification has been used into an international race valid per our period G2. (1970-1971)
The only Europa entered into an international race is the one that raced at Targa Florio1970.
The other Europas  raced in national championship GT in Germany and US SCCA
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Sunday,April 13, 2014, 02:07:08 AM
I agree that what you say is correct regarding exterior modifications (like suspension and carbs), however it would be impossible to prove what compression ratio or cam grind they had, therefor you won't have to prove that.

There is a list with Europa entries here: http://www.racingsportscars.com/type/archive/Lotus/Europa.html (http://www.racingsportscars.com/type/archive/Lotus/Europa.html)

And there are a couple more international races (like the Sebring 12h in 1969 and an international event in Zolder) with the names of the drivers, so you can try and contact them as well.


Serge

Edit:
There are two pictures on ebay where you can see the Reggie Smith, Jr. / AJ Lilly / Don Pickett Lotus Europa at Sebring in 1969.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-8-X-10-1969-Sebring-Porsche-911-MGB-Lotus-Europa-Auto-Racing-Photo-/190789260724 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-8-X-10-1969-Sebring-Porsche-911-MGB-Lotus-Europa-Auto-Racing-Photo-/190789260724)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-8-X-10-1969-Sebring-MGB-Mustang-Porsche-Lotus-Europa-Racing-Photo-/190787941032 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-8-X-10-1969-Sebring-MGB-Mustang-Porsche-Lotus-Europa-Racing-Photo-/190787941032)
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Sunday,April 13, 2014, 02:53:34 AM
Beautiful pictures! Thanks for the advice!

regarding the inside of the engine you are totally correct.
If we take those picture from Sebring may be we can proof that wider rims  have been used.
Unfortunately they have indicated the engine displacement, that means as G1 we must use our 1470 bored + 1.2mm. (as per FIA rule).
In case we go for G1 we will be 100% sure that we cannot modify caburation manifold and header.
the rule for G1 were even more restrictive.
Sebastiani/Nardini (Targa florio) did not indicate the engine displacement. Se we can bore to 1600cc.
Unfortunately they use the original rims 4.5 inches

PS that zolder race was into a german Championship. so not valid



   
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Sunday,April 13, 2014, 10:49:46 AM
If you run in G2, what I plan to do, there are a lot more modifications that you can do. I can see no downside to begin in G2, because G1 & 2 will always race together.

Do you think you would have problems getting an international HTP with your current setup? I know the Belgian scrutineers are notoriously easy to get an HTP even without the proof.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Sunday,April 13, 2014, 12:19:55 PM
In G2 you can modify your car if you are able to prove the modifications allowed as Group 4. Otherwise you must follow the homologation 3028 (G2) which is basically the stock car Group 3.
As G1 we can at least use wider rims...
With my current set up it would be impossible to get an international HTP. Not because of Italian scrutineers , which are for sure as easy as the Belgians, but I know that now in Paris the FIA is running a database where they can verify the period specification quite easily.
Our dossier will go for sure to Paris since the roll bar has to be approved.
If you make a national HTP you could skip the FIA. But you cannot make any international race outside your country.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Sunday,April 13, 2014, 03:40:12 PM
Ok, we'll need to investigate further:

Homologation form 3028: group 3 in 1970 (If I look at appendix J of 1969, 1971 wouldn't have been written at that point) = GT car
Homologation form 600: group 4 in 1970 = sportscar

So we want to use homologation 3028 if we want to race as a GT car. This (or the other) homologation form would automatically put us in category G2 (1/1/1970-31/12/1971) because the homologation would only become valid on 1/1/1970. If you would look at Appendix J of 1971 you see that Group 3 is production GT and group 4 is GTS, however I think we need to look at the earlier one.

Appendix K:
Touring,    Competition    Touring,    GT    and    GTS    cars    of    Period   
G2    (1/1/1970-31/12/1971)    onwards    must    comply    with    the   
Appendix   J   international   Competition   regulations   appropriate   to   
the   final   year   of   their   period   as   defined   in   Article   3.

So for us that's Appendix J of 1971.

However, I also found the part that you were referring to:
(b)      These   models   must   have   a   competition   history   and   the   special   
mechanical   parts   are   limited   to   those   authorised   in   the   period   
Appendix   J   rules   applicable   to   Group   3   cars   and   Article   5   (Safety).
(c)      All   modifications   must   respect   the   technology   of   the   period   as   
applied   to   that   model.
(d)      Should    these    models    have    been    subsequently    homologated   
by   the   FIA   in   Group   3,   they   may   only   use   those   mechanical   
parts    included    in    the    relevant    extension    of    the    FIA    Group   3   
Homologation   Form.

Does this "subsequently" mean that if a car has been homologated outside of the period, so let's say last year on bases of photographs (like Stefan's car)? It's not a very clear paragraph.


Also, the part about the "alternative components" is very confusing:
Alternative   components   to   the   original   manufacturer’s   specifications   
can   only   be   used   if   it   is   proven   that   these   components   were   allowed   
by   the   period   Appendix   J   and/or   homologation   form   applicable   to   
the   car   concerned   and,   in   both   cases,   used   in   that   model   of   car   in   
a   Competition   entered   on   the   FIA   International   Sporting   Calendar   in   
the   period.

I will also ask some questions on the 10/10ths forum, they will have some more answers.

Serge

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,April 14, 2014, 12:55:10 AM
ciao again,

the homologation 600 is dated 1968. It sould have one extension for the model type 54 (dashboard ans so on).
This homologation is valid today as GT/GTS in period G1.
Here you can make very few modifications as the appedix J of the period was very restrictive.
For example you must use the stock exhaust manifold, but you could change the silencer.
You could use a different carburettor but you must use the stock intake manifold.
As well you could use alloy rims in larger width than the stock.
This was the configuration of the Europa that raced in Sebring 1969.
for this period you should follow today the rules valid for GTS cars (period E F and G1) written today into the appendix K 2014 which follow by 90% the appendix J of the period.
All the modifications you can make today are the one written in the omologation 600 and extensions (unfortunately there is no racing parts in this Homologation) and plus you can modify your car following the roles of the appendix J of the period.  This last is only valid if you can prove that a car ran this or that modification in an international race of that period (G1). For example now we can prove that larger wheels have been used, but we cannot prove that a different carburettor was in that car (so far).
 
In the same way the homologation 3028 is valid for the new FIA roles released in 1970.
I agree with you when you say that in the period G2 you could make much more modifications than G1, but you still have to prove that those modifications have been used on a car entered in an international race of the period G2.
3028 in fact is the Homologation for Group 3 (stock GT), if a car raced in the period G2 as Group 4 (and you have to prove it) then you can use the modifications allowed by the appendix J 1971. But in the same time you have to prove that the modification that you want to use (allowed in the appendix J 1971) have been used for real in a car entered into an iternationa race of the period G2


Now we have only two car that we can refer for modifications.

Sebring 1969 for G1.
Targa Florio 1970 for G2.

For sure the car entered Targa Florio is a Group 4 (I saw the same car entered as Group 4 into a national hillclimb in 1970). We must investigate wich kind of modifications ran this car. Unfotunately here you must use the 4.5 stock rims. That's for sure.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Monday,April 14, 2014, 01:50:44 AM
Ok, we are making progess! You are correct about needing the period proof. Are you sure that 600 is valid for G1? On the first page (that is missing) there is 1970 handwritten somewere? Not sure what that means.

So in G1 we could use the standard manifold with a weber DGxx 38 for example? I don't think 4.5 inch wheels are that much of a problem, we don't have the power to need the larger tyres. But we will need some power if we want to keep up with the rest.

We would also need to prove the use of adjustable shock absorbers (both in height (spring platforms) as in dampening) and if it's possible in aluminium as well (bot that will be a long shot).

Serge
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,April 14, 2014, 03:03:47 AM
Fiches 600 is 1968, with the extension for the type 54.

So in G1 we could use the standard manifold with a weber DGxx 38 for example?

we could use a competition carburettor in use at that period (like the 40DCNF). We cannot use flange and we must use the original mainfold attachment.
But here we have to prove that the same carburation has been used in Sebring 1969.

I don't think 4.5 inch wheels are that much of a problem, we don't have the power to need the larger tyres. But we will need some power if we want to keep up with the rest.

Well but I'm Italian, the Aesthetic come first.  ;D ;D ;D
I really want to use the G1 configuration.

We would also need to prove the use of adjustable shock absorbers (both in height (spring platforms) as in dampening) and if it's possible in aluminium as well (bot that will be a long shot).
Serge

here is a tricky part, we have to convince the FIA to allow us using the new shocks absorbers.
Just for a safety reason no more nor less.
They probably ask us to block the springs un one position then.
Looking at this photo of Targa I don't they are using adjustable shocks.


 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Monday,April 14, 2014, 10:00:09 AM
There are also a lot of results on http://touringcarracing.net/ (http://touringcarracing.net/)

I think that there should be a couple of international events on there. I also asked around on the 10/10ths forum and one of the people on there will contact a friend of his, who is an FIA inspector for HTPs in Belgium, to find out if we're reading the regulations correctly.


Serge
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,April 14, 2014, 10:56:43 AM
Cesana Sestriere 1969, Italy.
valid as euopean challenge Fia.
here we have large rims
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,April 14, 2014, 11:44:07 AM
here a list of Fia Hill climb where to look for lotuses.

http://www.euromontagna.com/makes.php?lng=6&make=Lotus&type=Europa
http://www.euromontagna.com/makes.php?lng=6&make=Lotus&type=Europe
http://www.euromontagna.com/driver.php?lng=6&id_driver=2114

there is a lotus europe Group 4 raced by Oscar Bubeck a swiss man in 1971. Hill climb in St Ursanne and Ollon Villars.

in the same Ollon Villars 1971 also mr Tresch (no nation) ran a lotus europa Group 4
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,April 14, 2014, 12:03:27 PM
DRAMMATIC TURN OF EVENTS:

Oscar Bubeck and  Alfons Tresch,  two Swiss dudes, ran two Lotus Europe Group 4 GTS in Ollon Villars 1971.

Their Lotus were entrered as................................................

LOTUS EUR. HEMI 1565.

 http://www.ollon-villars.com/img/programmes/1971.pdf

Now we MUST find Photos.
We also Must ask FIA:

Do you allow us to race with Hemi engine? Or do you want disqualify those car form official result as they were not following the appendix J....

Mecky, we have the armageddon!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,April 14, 2014, 12:43:18 PM
That could help us. I don't think we MUST have pictures. The name is enough. Unfortunately there is not "Europa" explicitly written. But here you can see it:  http://www.euromontagna.com/makes.php?lng=2&make=Lotus&type=Europe

The other thing I'm not sure about is the fact that it was a hillclimb. Hopefully it is also relevant for a circuit-racing HTPs...
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,April 14, 2014, 01:04:53 PM
the appendik K say just "international race".
Ollon Villars was an huge international (FIA) events, enough to see the names entered and cars as well.
In that time car manifacturs were involved in the European Hill Climb Championship.

You can see the entry list: Alfons Tresh with a Lotus Eur. Hemi.

And take a look at the following photos.
At that time the official Lotus dealer in Swiss used to offer this option. I saw one of this car in Italy 10 years ago.
Following the appendix J 1971 FIA said that "option" for performance can be run if the manifacturer (or a... dealer)  can reach 500 pieces in one year. It can be possible the Swiss dealer convinced FIA that 500 pieces have been done...


http://argent.fia.com/web/fiapublic.nsf/1D4EDF6BC43959EFC12574DB00503D4B/$FILE/Hist_App_J_71_Art_260_a.pdf

 

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,April 14, 2014, 01:07:06 PM
and again...ooops.... alloy wheels...
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,April 14, 2014, 01:37:17 PM
That sounds sort of good... But I can't afford to take a risk with 700 € for a new HTP.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Monday,April 14, 2014, 03:16:39 PM
Wow, that's a turn of events! That would make everything a lot easier! I do think we would need photographs to prove some more, because hemi doesn't specify a whole lot. If we can prove that the car entered has this swiss conversion, we could be onto something big, because the specs are all there on the flyer: Engine, carbs, wheels, ...

Although I liked the idea of staying with the wedge-head engine, it has it's charm!


Serge

Edit: we don't need to prove they made 500, one is enough.

This is a list of other hillclimbs Bubeck entered:
http://www.euromontagna.com/driver.php?id_driver=2114&lng=2 (http://www.euromontagna.com/driver.php?id_driver=2114&lng=2)
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: skwiz on Tuesday,April 15, 2014, 08:41:33 AM
If this homologuation appear to be succesfull, does it means we could race in GTS 1600 with an hemi (and twin WEBER 45 and larger rims), is it the good conclusion ??

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Tuesday,April 15, 2014, 09:11:41 AM
If we can prove this car raced with those parts, yes!

Serge
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,April 15, 2014, 09:24:21 AM
well, yes this would be the happy ending...
But the first one of us that will send the document to FIA must present this as a complete dossier as FIA require.
FIA won' t accept just documents, they have to analyse the story of this configuration! That means we have to write a report and it must be supported by documents (entry list, photos, letters of drivers or mechanics..)
Part of the documents are now here attached, But me and Serge are going to hunt for photos of these cars.
Today I tried to contact the Tresch Automobile AG Garage in Dübendorf, German-Switzerland.
They were Renault Dealers back in the seventies, and Alfons Tresch was the owner.
We also have the Alfons Tresch address and telephone number.
But nor me nor Serge speak German and we know that porbably Mr Alfonse don't speak English.
If I have no answer from the Garage I will write a letter to Mr. Alfonse.
Skwiz, before spend money we must collect as much documentation as possible.
You are French, you could get in contact with FIA in order to better understand how it can be done this dossier.

ciao,
Valerio
 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,April 15, 2014, 09:58:01 AM
I speak German quite well and I would love to race in GTS class, too.  :pirate:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,April 15, 2014, 10:04:36 AM
                                                         F  A  N  T  A  S  T  I  C!


                                   :pirate: Meeting @ Nurburgring Nordschleife 2015  :pirate:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Tuesday,April 15, 2014, 11:18:29 AM
Stefan,

how hard was it to present a file to the FIA to get your current homologation based on the photographs and entry forms that you found?


Serge
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,April 15, 2014, 11:28:07 AM
I sent an E-Mail with a short explaination and attached theperiod pictures and some pictures for comparison between the different engine types. That's it.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,April 15, 2014, 01:15:44 PM
Hi Mecky,

You presented the period specification Prove with Entry List and photos of the race car with the engine bay exposed where is even possible to see the Tecalemit Injection pump!!  :pirate:
Let alone the change of the bodycoach.  8)

Here we have instead just the Entry List and some evidences that allow us to build a sort of a prove.
But still miss The Prove.
May be I'm wrong but I think we need to get the photos of those cars. Or at least we have to try...
 ;D
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: skwiz on Tuesday,April 15, 2014, 03:07:15 PM
I will try to figure out if that could be enough or if we would absolutely need pictures, but last time I contacted them it took me 1 week to have the guy on the phone and it was a not really helpfull oldschool guy...
Lets hope next time will be more relevant !!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Thursday,April 17, 2014, 02:14:28 AM
 :beerchug:

Ok Folks!!
here we are.
I got the a Partial entry list and....

                                 :pirate:   O N E     PHOTO!   :pirate:

this is one the car entered at St Ursanne-Le Rangiers 1971.ù
I think we can read the number 251 on the car door, so it's Mr. Oscar Bubeck.
We must say a BIG Thank You to Monsieur Thais of Forum Auto.

http://www.forum-auto.com/sport-auto/histoire-du-sport-auto/sujet379017-30170.htm

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,April 17, 2014, 03:39:08 AM
Are those flares and a little front spoiler?  :huh:

@Serge: As you propably speak French very well, you could join this forum. They seem to have a huge archive and knowledge base.

EDIT: Just saw that Valerio has already joined.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Thursday,April 17, 2014, 03:49:43 AM
Looks like the standard flares, but I see wide wheels!

Edit:
Stefan, my French isn't as good as you would expect. I can certainly manage, but it isn't my native language. I'm actually from the Flemish part of Belgium, so I speak Dutch, but I have been taught French in school.

I know this forum exists and I follow the Europa-thread from time to time. There are certainly interesting things on there.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Thursday,April 17, 2014, 03:58:53 AM
It has the fuel cap exposed on the flank like mine.
But it really looks like having a front spoiler ...
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,April 17, 2014, 04:18:15 AM
Could it be the same car as this one? Propably it isn't, but could somebody from the FIA believe it?  :confused:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Thursday,April 17, 2014, 04:53:39 AM
Looks like the standard flares, but I see wide wheels!
My French isn't as good as you would expect. I can certainly manage, but it isn't my native language. I'm actually from the Flemish part of Belgium, so I speak Dutch, but I have been taught French in school.

I would say that wheels are wider than 6inch written into the tech spec of the official Swiss Hemi Version.

I am wearing 6inch front and 7inch rear.

 :WTF: Serge! I bet your french is much better than mine, look how bad is my English and i don't care of it...

mecky we could cut that photo and use that part to show the Engine...
But I still want to get in contact with Mr. Tresch, I guess he also have a photo of his engine bay.
The garage is closed for the Easter Holydays, in Swiss as here in Sweden we like to take long vacations  ;D   
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,April 21, 2014, 08:50:51 AM
here a photo of Oscar Bubeck on 1973... Period H1
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Monday,April 21, 2014, 09:08:05 AM
Let's hope his car didn't evolve to much in 2 years because that would give us some options!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,April 22, 2014, 10:22:15 AM
I contacted a few swiss people, but I did not learn anything new, yet. But I am still waiting for some answers.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Wednesday,April 23, 2014, 02:49:11 AM
that's awesome!!

Thanks Mecky, we will wait for good news

V
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,April 24, 2014, 04:05:49 PM
We were testing our Europa S2 at Zolder today. The car worked great. Only problem was a big collection of GT3 racers, who drove at the same time. Even one old Formula 1 car tested there. You have to watch the mirrors all the time. 2:01 min was quiet a nice time, but not the limit. Without that much traffic we would have laped in under two minutes. We completed about 60 laps. :pirate:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Sunday,May 04, 2014, 08:36:12 AM
that's awesome!!

Thanks Mecky, we will wait for good news

V
Hi Boys,

I did not get any useful replies from Switzerland at all. I am not convinced that the material, we found so far, is enough for legalizing the 1565 cc crossflow engine in GTS-class, but I talked to our brother A Schmidt-Ohren last week. Maybe he's going to try to get a FIA HTP in this configuration.

Best regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Sunday,May 04, 2014, 02:57:39 PM
Hi Stefan,

Thank you anyway for your help!
This sounds weird, I don't understand why the Swiss don't want to help us..
Ideally we need a photo of the engine bay, but we could try to use the documents I collected so far.

Entry list Ollon Villars 1971.
Entry list St Ursanne 1971.
Official Results St Ursanne 1971.
Photo of the car in action at St Ursanne.
List of races the car has taken place untill 1974.
Photo of the car in 1973.
Catalogue with tech spec of the Swiss Lotus Dealer.

In case some of you want to proceed just ask me, I will email the documents.
I am undergoing to restore my R8 Gordini 1100 racecar period F.
I will be off from my Lotus for a while...
Ciao
Valerio.

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,May 05, 2014, 12:22:53 AM
The problem with the swiss catalogue is the stamp mark on the first site, which says "MARS 1972".
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,May 05, 2014, 01:20:37 PM
Hey Mecky!
Don't be so negative, look... other documents are on the go. :)
The lotus hemi 807 were on the market since 1969!
there was even a special vesion called Black Shadow equiped with a Kugelfisher (Thanks Germany!) injection.


and look... gearbox 5 speed.


Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,May 05, 2014, 01:25:50 PM
I still not understand why the Suisse do not want to give us some information! :blowup:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: skwiz on Tuesday,May 06, 2014, 09:49:15 AM
Hi Stefan,

Thank you anyway for your help!
This sounds weird, I don't understand why the Swiss don't want to help us..
Ideally we need a photo of the engine bay, but we could try to use the documents I collected so far.

Entry list Ollon Villars 1971.
Entry list St Ursanne 1971.
Official Results St Ursanne 1971.
Photo of the car in action at St Ursanne.
List of races the car has taken place untill 1974.
Photo of the car in 1973.
Catalogue with tech spec of the Swiss Lotus Dealer.

In case some of you want to proceed just ask me, I will email the documents.
I am undergoing to restore my R8 Gordini 1100 racecar period F.
I will be off from my Lotus for a while...
Ciao
Valerio.

Hi Valerio,

I have just removed the chassis yesterday (I'll post pictures on the french forum Asap) and I am interested in getting all those documents (you have my email already) as I will need to now what I will reassemble.
I just need to find the proper person to contact as my previous contact was not really helpfull...
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,May 13, 2014, 11:43:52 AM
I'm wondering if this car could be one of the one.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,May 15, 2014, 01:22:18 AM
Hi there

I finally got an answer from Alfons Tresch, but he has no pictures or documents in his archive. He just said that both of them (Tresch and Bubeck) used almost completely standard cars. The only things changed were the camshaft (Albert) and carburettors (Dellorto). Pity!

Best regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Thursday,May 15, 2014, 06:28:44 AM
ciao Stefan,

sorry to say, but why pity?

Were those cars Hemi engined? YES.

Have those cars two carburettors? YES. no matter the make since the appendix k allow us to change the make.

Were those cars competitive? YES. Look at the results.

The fact they were "standard" don't change the fact they were classified as Group 4 from FIA.

The real pity is that he don't have any picture.

Anyway, our French friend Skwiz is enquiring FIA for this configuration in order to proceed on request of official HTP.
He collected a nice Dossier with new photos and documents.
We will have the final response by end of June.

 C:-)


Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Thursday,May 15, 2014, 08:58:56 AM
Good news, I'm curious on what the FIA's respons will be. If he gets the go-ahead we're finally out of the woods and we have a certain direction that we can take. Some very clear guidelines.

Serge
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: skwiz on Thursday,May 15, 2014, 03:11:06 PM

Anyway, our French friend Skwiz is enquiring FIA for this configuration in order to proceed on request of official HTP.
He collected a nice Dossier with new photos and documents.
We will have the final response by end of June.

Hi all

Indeed valerio is right I sent it already although I didn't received the acknowledge receipt for my mail and today was the deadline for the June session, let's cross fingers !!

I have a gearbox question to all of you:

Whatever the decision, I will swap to 807 hemi and if I have to, I would register in TSRC for that. I have a R16TX to put in the car as soon as I rebuild (if I don't buy a 807 soon enough), but anyway I don't have the gearbox so I definitely need to buy one.
But I have no knowledge in that area (in the french forum I was basically told to look for models fitted in the same side of the engine as the lotus but that's all...). So...
First which type of gearbox would be allowed, either in TSRC of GTS 1600 (5 gears alowed ? which references ?).
Second which are the best/strongest gearboxes ? How to recognise a race gearbox and how to find one ? Etc...

Also in term of engine, I will certainly do it in two step, get an original one in the car, and latter strip it down and tune it for races with proper components. Do I have to look for 807 20 only (the ones of the r12g and r17g) of are there other option ?

Thank you for your help
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: skwiz on Tuesday,June 17, 2014, 03:38:53 AM
Hi all,

Bad new has arrived from FFSA... They don't agree from the homologation of the Hemi in GTS 1600... (with international HTP).
Maybe you should try in you own countries !

Mecky the result is I will certainly go for TSRC, so we might race together some day  :beerchug:
How about wheel size for TSCR, what is the limit permitted and what do you advise to go for ?

I do really like the panasport from technical shop happy, but the guy is from japan...
http://www.technicalshophappy.com/products/images/spparts/spparts00eu05b.jpg
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,June 17, 2014, 02:58:39 PM
Hi skwiz,

Do they give you any sort of explanation on top of this disagreeing?
I personally think that this is a shame.

Let us know!!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Wednesday,June 18, 2014, 06:39:44 AM
Hi there,
wheel sizes are

front: 8x13
rear: 9x13.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: skwiz on Thursday,June 19, 2014, 02:58:46 PM
Hi skwiz,

Do they give you any sort of explanation on top of this disagreeing?
I personally think that this is a shame.

Let us know!!

Actually the biggest shame to me is the fact that as an answer to the 50 pages folder, they almost answerd "No." (actually one sentence with no explaination...  :headbanger: )

Mecky : Your rear wheels are twice as large as the original ones !! ^^ I understand why you have those wide wheel arches !
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Saturday,June 21, 2014, 09:15:30 AM
Well, this was the official answer of FFSA right?
What about FIA?
I don't think this is up to a National ASN to decide. The answer have to be provide by the international federation.
I wonder if FFSA now could accept the TSRC configuration...
  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Thursday,June 26, 2014, 09:50:22 AM
...Still very angry for this situation...
I'm feeling we are in a sort of MAFIA connection.  >:( >:( >:( >:(

Anyway, Yesterday I took the decision to start a new project.
I am collecting some new parts for my wedge engine.
I asked for a brand new set of pistons (CR11.5/1) to CPS, the Mecapart supplier.
Also, I will put a brand new and enlarged valve trains and I will port the head.
Of course I will have an uprated camshaft.

I will go for G1 configuration because as G2 the car can't have any improvement.
I will make the car as per the one has raced in Sebring 1969, with 6 inches wheels.
I will keep the stock header, intake manifold and carburettor (SOLEX).

I will post some pictures on the coming weeks....
 >:(
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Thursday,June 26, 2014, 11:13:29 AM
Valerio,

Nice to hear that you're not giving up! Do you have any notes or info on the Sebring 1969 specifications? At least the rules for G1 are pretty clear.

Also, did you design the piston yourself, to get the correct dome height for the compression? Do you have any technical drawings?

And does anyone by any chance know the original wedge head spring rates for the double valve springs in the Lotus spec engine? Or for a modified engine? I only have standard R16 valve springs and they are not enough, not even for the standard lotus camshaft.

I don't have a standard twin choke solex carburettor either I think, but I'll need to check my parts when I get home.


Serge
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Thursday,June 26, 2014, 12:39:12 PM
Ciao Serge,

it's good to hear from you.
Just to let you know I personally take this challenge against the federation  just like a sort of time break.
I will work against the idiots (and mafiosus) that don't want to recognize a real race car and I will promote the right we have racing with the same car configuration.  >:( >:(

Regarding the Sebring specification I have some pictures where the bigger wheels are displayed.
I also have the entry List.
I've no other information, but I can say that nobody is able today to recognize a weber or a solex.
I will go for a single weber 40DCNF since they fit on the stock manifold.

Regarding the pistons from CPS I've just made a mold of my combustion chamber and I sent to them the specification as follow:

diam 77 (using mecaparts liners)
wirstpin 20 blocked into the conrod

I also sent to them an old piston.
If you are in need I can help you, they are Italian but for sure they speak "Engliano".  ;D
Please note I have unshroud the area near the valves. So it's better you send your own molds.
price is 186 euro each tax included.

Regarding the springs I have solved the problem using a spare from Fiat X1/9, but you could ask to Catcam in Belgium, since they have a huge catalogue.
I will also change the valve train using 7mm stem instead of 8mm, made to measure from IVAM (italy).  For the valve guide I will ask IVAM as well.
I will use a made to measure retainer (using the valve spring locks of Renault gordini engine 1300)

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Saturday,June 28, 2014, 06:45:39 AM
What are the advantages for the Sebring spec? I've read through Appendix K for G1 GTS cars, and it looks very restrictive. Maybe you have a better view of the modifications that are possible, but I have some concerns.

If the only addition is wider wheels, than I wouldn't change from G2 to G1. In most cases G1 and G2 will race together and I think you will lose power with the standard exhaust manifold. Why don't you change the intake manifold to the original and run a weber carb (38 or 40 DGV synchro) but still retain your tubular exhaust manifold and do the rest of the engine modifications?

If the only downside is that you have to use 4.5" wheels in stead of 6", I think the power decrease will hurt more than the extra width will gain.


Serge
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Saturday,June 28, 2014, 07:26:35 AM
Serge, again, if you are not able to have documents that show that a different exhaust manifold has been used, then you must keep the stock exhaust manifold also in G2.
G2 is more interesting if you can have the evidences for the modifications allowed by appendix J 1971.
So far we cannot prof any configuration in G2 except the one we had for hemi engines.
But FiA do not accept it, mysteriously...

I tell you what I will do.
HTP as G1 and then i will use my double webers on races.
This is a typical behavior of most of the drivers. The park fermé is just ridiculous, nobody will check your HTP.
Fia accept when you are cheating more than when you try to play fair.
Absurd.
More, In my case CSAI ( the equivalent of FFSA) approved my modifications and I am now running an official national HTP of a car that never existed. What's wrong with them???
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,July 21, 2014, 07:06:47 AM
Hi guys,

we had a nice weekend at Spa-Francorchamps. The weather was brilliant, but because of the heat we had some trouble with an overheating engine while qualifying. After 15 minutes of quick driving and reving up to 6500 rpm the water gauge told me about temperature of 110°C. That was not a problem for that short time, but it would be over the race distance of three hours. Because of that we had to limit the revs while the race down to 5500 rpm. That ment a constant temperature of 95°C and nothing broke.

Naturally this was a big disadvantage in performance. We had to leave the throttle pedal half way through the long straights. But in the corners we were able to go really quick, so that we came 34th of 62 cars overall and 3rd of 6 cars in class. We did beat a Mini Marcos (this guy's car is a 1300 ccm GT car, but he has to race in Two-Seater-Racing-Car class up to more than 2 litres, as well), a Ginetta G12 and a Ford GT40, which did not finish. The GT40 stopped in the last corner of the last lap (probably out of fuel) and because of the endurance-reglement we took the third place off him, although he completed more laps. But if you don't cross the finishline, you will not be classified.

The TSRC class was won by the extremely quick Daren Mk3 with a Cosworth BDG engine (270 HP with 500 kg). Second place went to another great car: Chevron B16 with about 250 HP and 590 kg. The Daren was driven by three-time Le Mans-winner Marco Werner and the GT40 by Audi works-driver Frank Stippler, who won the 24 hours Nürburgring 2012.

Our fastest lap was 3:15,1 min, which is quiet nice under these conditions. I think if we could press the right foot hard down, at least 5 seconds faster would be no problem.

This time we were lucky. :pirate: :trophy:

Best regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Monday,July 21, 2014, 07:25:07 AM
Good job Stefan! If I had known you were at Spa this weekend I might had come visit, let me know when you're back at Zolder.

What radiator are you using? It might be worthwhile trying something else, because I think you will gain a lot of speed if you can use the remaining revs.


Serge
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,July 21, 2014, 08:48:46 AM
ciao Stephan,

First of all congratulation for the race!! Spa is one of my dream.
6500 are the revs I am planning to reach for my new project, but for sure I will face the overheating problem.
At monza with just 5200 rpm the temperature was constantly at 100C°.
Are you using the thermostat unit?

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,July 21, 2014, 11:37:24 AM
Thanks boys,

we are using the very thick standard radiator with a whole new core and without thermostat.

I think this problem has more than one reason. Firstly there is the not very good position of the radiator in the boot, secondly the water container is much too close to the exhaust manifold and maybe thirdly the stock Renault waterpump is not constructed to pump the water through such a long circle. Do you know something about a better one?

I had to get off the throttle half the way through the long Kemmel straight and far before the very fast Blanchimont-curve. Additionally I had to lift the throttle earlier than I wanted before the corners La Source, Eau Rouge and Fagnes. Maybe I also lost some time accerating out of tight corners in 4th instead of 3rd gear. But I had to be that careful to bring the car home. And the GT40 shows why... To finish first, first you have to finish!

Best regards

Stefan

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europaqq
Post by: Valerio Leone on Monday,July 21, 2014, 12:48:15 PM
I was looking at your time data.
3.15 is good, but with your  kg/hp rate,  you could be much faster.
Let's say that without that problem you could gain at least 15 seconds.

I'm also using a thick alluminium radiator. The same radiator for lotus 47. Same position and same fan.
I dont' know if i can say that the water pump is weak. alpine 110 is using he same pump for competition, and the radiator is in front of the car.
On this point an Alpine race driver told me that I should use the thermostat, this allow the water to flow slow through the radiator for better cooling. Could be right??

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,July 21, 2014, 01:57:59 PM
Not 15 seconds. The Europa is significantly slower than an Elan. The Elans in our competition have almost 200 HP an whey less than 600 kg. I have 160 HP and 670 kg. I noticed that I could go as fast as the 2 litre Alfas. That would mean something about 3:05 perhaps.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,July 22, 2014, 01:38:35 AM
Ciao Mecky,

What do you think about the thermostat story. Do you think it would help to keep the temperature low.
I had the same problem with my R8 gordini, running without thermostat.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Tuesday,July 22, 2014, 01:49:22 AM
I am surprised that there are so many problems with engine temperature. As Valerio says, the Alpine A110 guys have the same water pump and radiator location and they are running much bigger revs than 6500.

Valerio might have a point about the thermostat, I can remember reading something to that effect in the knowledgebase.
 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,July 22, 2014, 01:56:23 AM
Right Serge, also in consideration that me and Mecky are using same radiator and same layout as per Lotus 47.
 :help:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,July 31, 2014, 12:32:26 PM
Maybe it's just a problem with the water gauge or temperature sensor. We will figure that out.

I made a little calculation about how fast I can go on the tracks in our calendar, based on laptimes from eight other cars from our racing series on each track and my fastest driven lap in Hockenheim.

On the basis of the fastest lap of 2:13 min from Hockenheim (4574 m) in 2012, I figured out lap times of 2:01 min at Zolder (4000 m), which I already drove in April with lots of traffic, 3:08 min at Spa Francorchamps (7004 m) and 2:33 min at Nürburgring GP (5137 m).
I also made a second calculation based on the guess that I could go about two seconds faster now in Hockenheim. That would mean a laptime of 2:11 min in Hockenheim, 1:59 min at Zolder, 3:05 min at Spa-Francorchamps and 2:30 min at the Nürburgring GP-track. I think something inbetween theese two results for each track is possible and that would mean to be as fast as class-winning 2-litre touring-cars of period G like Alfa Romeo GTAm and BMW 2002 ti or faster than huge Mustangs and most of the 2-litre Porsche 911.
But our Europa will never be quite as fast as the Lotus Elan, which can do 2:05 min at Hockenheim, 1:53 min at Zolder, 2:58 min at Spa and 2:23 min at Nürburgring GP. That's because Mr. Chapman homologated the Elan 26 R, which allows modifications like disc brakes all around. Aside from that the Elan has almost 200 HP at a weight of 580 kg, while we have 40 HP less and 100 kg more.

The small calculation also shows some characteristics of each track. For example that Spa-Francorchamps is the fastest with an average speed of about 136 km/h, followed by Hockenheim with 126 km/h and Nürburgring GP with 123 km/h. The slowest track in our calendar and a huge torture for the breaks is Zolder with an average of 121 km/h. The difference of the last three seems to be very small, but an average of 121 km/h would mean 2:16 min instead of 2:11 min at Hockenheim, which is quite a lot.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,August 01, 2014, 02:31:57 AM
Ciao Mecky,

I have also made some calculation and I am still convinced you could be at least as fast as the Marcos  1800 gts (2.59 at Spa)
Definetly faster than Alfa GTAm and probably very close to the 26R.

On this Elan in specific you should know that the Kent Lotus engine full appendix K can provide maximum 180HP. This figure have already some reliability troubles, that's why the 26R prepared for endurance get maximum 165/170HP.
Ok the Lotus 26R is 580kg weight, but you could have 613Kg, so not that much difference.
Your advantage can be for sure the handling and better road holding in the corners.
At Monza the Alpine A110 laptime is 2.18. The Lotus 26R 2.19.
Ok it depend on the driver as well, but you know that Alpine A110 is very heavy (700Kg).
I also have made a calculation where and how you can save at least 50/60kgs.   :trophy:





   
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Friday,August 01, 2014, 04:20:50 AM
Hi Valerio,

I am sure that this Elan has a lot more than 165 HP. No other car, except for the TSRCs (Chevron B16, Ford GT40 and Daren Mk3), is so much faster on the long uphill straight at Spa. Not even the 2,5 litre Porsches, which have 270 HP or the BDA Escort with 250 HP. This huge difference in accerleration and speed does not come from a 7 HP advantage. I know an Escort TC driver, who has cam shafts made by an Elan-specialist and even his Escort has very reliable 185 HP. And also the Alpine A110 can be very very quick. In Germany there is one, which lead in Spa 2012 half the race in front of Chevron B16, Porsche 907 and Lotus 23B, until he had to retire.

I did my calculation not on how the car could go, if it would be much lighter or more powerful. Just as it is know with 158 HP and 670 - 680 kg. In this configuration I am exactly as fast on the straights as the Alfa GTAm. Their advantage is a better breaking and I can go a little faster through the corners. So it's quite plausible. Ok, it's hard to know, how much time I lost with driving slow at Spa, but 6 seconds faster than this Alfas? No way!

If the car would be down to the minimum weight that would be a different story. I think with 615 kg, it could be possible to break the 3 min barrier in Spa, but for now, we have to deal with it. In the winter hopefully we can reduce some weight, if wo have no damage on the car this season.

One huge point to reduce weight is the exhaust manifold. I think there we can win almost 10 kg. I already bought a much lighter one, but the muffmust be revised. There is also the heavy radiator and the huge battery, but these heavy parts in the front of the car are important for the handling especially in wet conditions. Another aspect to reduce weight would be the body. I think it's quite heavy, because of several deposits of paint and prestolit and what so ever. If we will get no major technical problems in the next time, the body is going to be restored and maybe lightened.

What are your ideas for saving weight? 60 kg is much. That would mean reaching the minimum weight of 615 kg. BTW: How much does you car whey?

Best regards

Mecky
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,August 01, 2014, 05:25:59 AM
Hi Mecky again,

I am comparing the figures of Monza, probably the fastest track in Europe.
There were 3 GTAm and they did 2.23 - 2.26 - 2.27.
The Alpine 110 did 2.18.
You have the same engine as per A110 Alpine but with a teoretical better weight ratio and much better handling and stability.

My calculation for weight reducion is as follow:

10 kilos changing radiator and battery.
10 Kilos changing the windscreen, you are allowed to us lexan in TSRC. Kelvedon have a nice version.
20 Kilos from wheels, you are now using the alluminium minilite J9 and J8 that weight something like 8 kilos each.
The 26R is using magnesium wheels 6X13 and 5.5X13 that weight 3.25 kilos. Let alone the Dunlop racing that are very light itself. This also improve a lot the accelleration performances. Magnesium is also good for brake temperatures.
The 26R is using the Dunlop racing 5.25M front and 5.50N back. Those tyres could be more than enought for the Europa.
You can buy a Set on of mag wheels 3.75PDC and spacer for wheels from Kelvedon.

10 kilos removing that manifold and using a lighter alternator
5 kilos if you use alloy front hub and alloy rear drums. also here you can improve the preformance.
4 kilos if you use the 4 speed gearbox with lighter limited slip Differential from quaife and a straight cut gearset. (like the one the 26R is using)

Then if you want to play dirty (and I will probably do it because FIA is plaing dirty with us) you can change the bootlid and the front using carbon. here you can save at least 10 kilos total.

so  :welder:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Friday,August 01, 2014, 08:23:23 AM
Thanks Valerio,

some good ideas there. I would put them in three categories: First not very expensive: I'm not sure, if my Dad is going to like the windscreen idea. I already mentioned it a few times, but we had to spend the money on other things, anyway. Now that the engine seems to be fixed, we could care about something like that. But if we change the windscreen, we will definetely not buy that expensive thing from Kelvedon, but make one ourself for almost a fourth of the price (around 100 €). We already did the same thing with the side and rear windows.
The revision of the exhaust manifold will also cost not so much money and I will care about this in about six weeks time. But I am not able to do anything on the car until middle of September :( These modifications could bring about 20 kg (~10 € / kg). :pirate:

There is a second category of things, which are still affordable, but already quite expensive for the little effect they have. Aluminium wheel hubs, Aluminium flywheel and a lighter fire extinguisher would save around 10 kg, but cost more than 800 € (~80 € / kg).

The third category is not affordable for us. I know for example, how extremely light Magnesium wheels are. My brother has an Osella PA21 (which I will probably also drive in 2015) with 12Jx13 rear wheels and they are so much lighter than our Minilites. Even with the huge 300 mm wide Avon slicks...
We could use Revolution or Minilite design, but Magnesium wheels are very expensive (around 2500 € per set, that would mean around 125 € / kg) and we bought the new Aluminium rims two years ago.
I don't understand, why we should use the wooden Dunlop tyres. They may be lighter, but our car has great grip with the wide semi-slicks. We only made the mistake to buy rims for the wet-condition-tyres, which are as wide as the rims for dry. One or two inches smaller would have been more clever, I think.
Also the gearbox is such an issue. A new racing gearbox for at least 5000 € is quite expensive for the saving of 4 kg :D I know, that it is more of an improvement than this 4 kg, but as long as our gearbox is ok, we won't change it. Hewland Mk8 would be allowed instead of the period gearbox, but I hope this will not be an issue in the next time.
Carbon bonnets must be very expensive, as well...

Best regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,August 01, 2014, 12:14:22 PM
I consider the mag wheels a key point. Not only for weight but for the benefit that they can provide to the performances in general.
Also i consider very important the straight cut and short ratio gear set and the LSD. This allow a great improvement avoiding power loss. Let alone the cool sound of this competition layout.
I know that a lot of people dislike dunlop racing tyres.
In my point of view this is the difference between race old style and race modern.
Dunlop racing are essential when you want to have the old feeling of controlled four wheel drift.
I am looking for this more than save one sec in laptime.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,August 01, 2014, 12:22:10 PM
A gear set  and LSD costs both no more than 2500 euros!   :)
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,August 01, 2014, 12:35:28 PM
  ::)
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Friday,August 01, 2014, 02:42:26 PM
Valerio, I am quite sure, that I read your name in a programm of a race event, where we were with the Osella. Maybe at Syntix Superprix Zolder or Acceleration Nürburgring? What are your other race cars? Do you also race in the Supercar Challenge?
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,August 01, 2014, 10:22:49 PM
No, it's a namesake!
And that's weird, my name, Valerio, is not so common in Italy! It's an old latin name. The same my family name Leone, that means lion, it's not common either!
I know that guy, first time I heard his name I was in Monza following the historic formula 3 race at coppa intereuropa 15 years ago. When the speaker said his name I felt so weird :huh:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,August 01, 2014, 10:29:08 PM
I have another race car actually. An old Renault R8 Gordini 1965. I bought it in California some years ago and imported in Italy.
Well, and in the same time and same place I also imported my wife. Hahahaha
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Sunday,August 03, 2014, 06:03:41 AM
Hey boys,

is there anything new about the project "Lotus Europa Hemi 807 Group 4 GTS"?
Every FIA HTP has a validation of 5 years. That means that in about one year time, I will have to apply for a new one. It would be really great to do get a HTP for GTS1600 class period G. In this class we would have won on both occasions we did not retire.

This class is very good for the Europa Renault Hemi, because the Europa TC was homologated in 1972 and period G ends with 1971. The most dangerous opponents could be the Lotus 47 (very rare) and some Elans (but mostly racing in period F). That's the reason why the best other GT1600 cars in the moment are Alfa 1600 GTA. These cars are more than beatable for a Europa Renault Hemi. I'm not sure about the wedge-head, because some say, it has only 100 HP, some say 130 HP and one guy in the USA told me something about 145 HP, but I don't know.

Best regards

Mecky
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: 3929R on Monday,August 04, 2014, 06:56:49 AM
Another sweet car Valerio!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,September 11, 2014, 05:24:08 AM
Hi boys,

I have some good and some bad news.

The good news is about our second place in class at Zolder about four weeks ago. We had a few problems over the weekend, but could finish without major problems. The engine is still very strong and completely mounted.

The first problem stopped our ambitions in qualifying. My dad had to come to the pits, because the gearbox mounting broke. That caused a huge amount of movement in the suspension and the car was undriveable. After reparing that issue, we started from position 23 and my brother drove the first stint. But just after ten minutes, he came into the pits. The clutch pedal sometimes "stayed down" while braking before a corner and then suddenly decided to come back up, what caused lots of trouble before the tight corners. This problem also caused a quiet big damage of the right front wheel-arch, because my dad almost lost the car and could not avoid a "speed bump" at a tight chicane. The tyre smashed into the arch and broke it on several places.
Unfortunately, we thought the reason for the problem was the adjustment of the clutch cable and some changes there did not help at all. We were not able to sort the reason out before the second driver's change. The brake pedal did jam the shaft of the clutch pedal and after a bit of lubrication, the problem was solved. Because of that, I had a very good beginning of the stint and my first lap of the weekend was already our fastest lap of the race. The second lap was even four seconds faster (2:02 min) and then it started drizzling a bit. After a few more laps, it seemed to get completely dry, but then it started to rain heavier. I told myself that the hunt for the 1:59 min laptime was over and slowed down, but not enough. I spun and the engine stopped. A problem with the starter made it necessary to wait around 12 minutes until the engine started again. I learned a lesson for my life that day and brought it home very carefully. unfortunately we lost 9 positions due to my fault and finished 24th overall.

We have already mounted a new starter and are already looking forward to the final race at the Nürburgring in three weeks time. And because we are the only competitor with two or more races, who has always finished, we are still in the race for the championship in the Two Seater Racing Car-Division. But if the other two competitors (Ford GT40 and the lucky guy, who can choose between Ginetta G12, Daren Mk3 and Chevron B16) are as quick and reliable as usual, we will end up third in this Division. The only difference to the past years is, that we deserve the third place this time and that we are not third, just because only three cars took part.

The Swiss Felix Haas has won all three races with three different cars, so far. The Reglement is not clear, how that is counted for the scoring of the Championship. He entered the Championship with his Ginetta G12. This car won the first race and retired in the second one. But he also raced his Daren Mk3 in the second race and won. In the third race, he won with his Chevron B16. If all points from all cars add up to one "account", he would have 25,67 points and would already be the Champion. But, if they would be seperated to each car (Ginetta: 7 points, Daren: 10,17 points, Chevron: 8,5 points) then he would be third, fourth and fivth at the same time. Or maybe just the points with the originally entered car count for the championship. That would mean only the 7 points for the Ginetta and third place. :confused:

What do you think would be a fair solution?
All his cars are competing in the same class (TSRC up to 2 Litres). I already asked the promoter, how they will go on with this issue. The only thing I definitely know is that the shortly published championship standing is wrong. They completely forgot Felix Haas in their calculation for the points of the second race.

The other competitors are Ford GT40 (13 points), our Lotus Europa-Team (10,33 points) and a Porsche 906 (6 points).

The bad news is that I talked to the German motorsport association about my chances to get into GT-class and they told me, I have no chance. Although I found an entry list with August Deutsch's car in the GT-class. They want to see a picture of this car with the startno. from this race (29). :blowup:

Best regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: BDA on Thursday,September 11, 2014, 08:39:45 AM
Congratulations on your second in class  :trophy: - even if your weekend didn't go as well as it might have!

I don't don't have any solutions for the mechanical issues you're having but I wonder if a hydraulic clutch is legal in your class. If so, maybe something you can do for next season.

It sounds like you're having the same problems I had when I raced my MG. If I fell off the road and the engine died, the starter wouldn't work till it cooled down. Joji discussed this in a post he recently made here (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=831.0).

I'm also curious about your driving style. You say

Quote
The clutch pedal sometimes "stayed down" while braking before a corner...

Are you pushing in the clutch when you brake? You shouldn't do that and you don't need to. You could potentially loose a bit of control whenever you are coasting. I know you're not coasting and that you are also on the brake but if you were to take your foot off the brake and not the clutch... It maybe a somewhat esoteric point in practice, but my point is that it is unnecessary and because it is simpler not to clutch when braking, it's possibly quicker and less potential for error. You should only use the clutch to change gears or possibly idle in the pits or paddock. In case you think I'm out of my mind, I was taught that when I took Bob Bondurant's racing school (one of the premier racing schools in the US - Bob had a very successful career including F1).  Now, if I've misunderstood what you meant to say... never mind.  :-[

So the class you are in is "two seater racing car"? That's a pretty broad category! You are definitely at a disadvantage going against a purpose built race car (I think I answered my question about the hydraulic clutch). I wonder if you have more latitude with your engine and/or transmission?

I'm not sure what I would do about Felix. It's never been an issue in my short racing career. I would think that each car would require a new points counting but it seems silly if he were to win every race but because he did it in different cars, he wouldn't get the driver's championship.

Good luck at the 'Ring!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Grumblebuns on Thursday,September 11, 2014, 11:34:59 AM
As to your clutch issues, I 'wondering if the broken trans mound damaged clutch actuating lever or bearing in side the bell housing causing the problem.

BDA, when you say not to use the clutch when braking, are you saying do a clutch less down shift or don't downshift. All of my 20 years of road racing experience has been with motorcycles, but the principles should be the same. For small displacement cars/bikes, braking into a corner moves you out of the machines power range. You have to downshift to get engine back into your power range for the exit drive out of the corner if you don't want to be left for dead.

In all the normal race organizations that I'm familiar with, points are accumulated by the individual driver or team. As far as I know this driver can use any vehicle as long as it meets the technical specifications for that particular class unless the rules state that you have to use the same machine for every race. So if he wanted to, he can use a different car/bike for every race?
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,September 11, 2014, 12:35:41 PM
i just wondered about the points, because he did not get any points forl his race  with two cars at spa-francorchamps.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: BDA on Thursday,September 11, 2014, 01:03:39 PM
You're right, Joji. Normally, a downshift will be needed to prepare for accelerating out of the turn.  Mecky said the clutch pedal stayed down when braking before a corner so I figured he might be doing what many average street drivers do - clutch when braking - which isn't necessary. In the braking zone, the clutch will certainly be needed to do the downshift to get just before the torque peak of the engine to exit the corner as quickly as possible. I don't think it would be a good idea for him to try clutchless downshifts (unless he has to). I probably mis-figured what he meant but I thought I'd say that just in case I didn't.

We were taught to be able to do clutchless downshifts (and upshfits). When done correctly (with a non-synchromesh gearbox such as a Hewland) they are lightning quick, but they require a lot more effort/concentration/skill so most racers I knew only kept that in case of a clutch failure. My experience is that at Bondurant's Formula Fords, the shifts were quick, when I tried it in my Lola (with a Hewland) about three years later, it didn't seem to work out as well. I never figured out why and chalked it up to my getting used to synchromesh trannies - maybe it was because my Hewland was new, or Bondurant's dog rings or gears were modified for quicker shifts, but maybe I just got bad at it and I should have practiced more!  ??? Whatever... I don't think anybody I talked to did clutchless shifts so gave it up.

I think that's pretty astute of you to link the broken tranny mount to the clutch problem! That would be a good first place to look!

Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Thursday,September 11, 2014, 01:29:36 PM
I always thought that the original mount could use some improvement. This is my own design. The base plate has been recycled from an original mount, the other parts are 3mm steel plate. Some quick phone pics, but you get the idea.

One picture of it all welded up. One is a mockup before welding and the other one is an overview of all the parts. The stack of washers has been replaced with a stainless spacer and it's been painted since then, but I haven't made any new photo's.


Serge
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,September 11, 2014, 10:58:13 PM
Hey boys,

i use the clutch only while shifting. on one occasion i had To shift without clutch, because the cable got loose. upshift was no big deal, but i had some problems with the double-declutching. staying on the clutch while braking is a thing my ex-girlfriend did. i am a little Bit disappointed that you think, i would drive like her :-D

@Serge: i really like your solution for a better engine and gearbox mounting. i think, if they are reliable, they are perfect for Europa race cars.

regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: BDA on Friday,September 12, 2014, 06:08:35 AM
It definitely sounds like you had your hands full! Glad to hear you ditched the chick who couldn't use the clutch properly!  ;D
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,October 07, 2014, 10:24:06 AM
Hi boys,

we had our final race of the season at the Nürburgring last weekend. 4h race into the dark. We had two qualifying sessions without any problems. I had to do the first stint and was very very careful while driving the first corner of the first lap, because it's a hairpin, which follows to the longest straight. At the start lots of guys had trouble with reacting to the lights properly and because of that I gained around six positions before the first corner, from which I lost four through the rest of the first lap due to my cautinousness. But I was already winning back one of them, before I missed my braking point. That meant, I would not miss a contact with a Porsche 911 driver in front of me :( Oh deer, I f**ked it up. Completely. I thought, I threw the whole 4h-race away in the second lap. I came slowly into the pits. I could already see a damaged wheel-arche from the driver's seat and feel that the car wanted to steer to the left on its own.

When I came in, I was so ashamed of what I did. I jumped out of the car, answered the obligatory questions and started to remove the wheel. I saw the lower wishbones and the rear one looked really bad. The upper ones were completely OK and after removing the damper, I saw that the front lower wishbone was OK, as well. My father flattened it almost perfectly and I started to reassemble the front suspension. Both left wheel-arches got a treatment with gaffer-tape. After about 40 minutes of repairing, I could go out again for another ten laps until the first regular pit-stop. I tested, If the car was driveable and I saw that it was. The front suspension was a bit out of adjustment, which lead to a bit of understeer. When I won back some of my confidence in the car I was able to drive one brisk lap, but still far away from what I had done with an undamaged car. 2:37,1 min is about 5 seconds away from the limit, I think.

After that, I gave the car to my father, who also had to gain confidence, but constantly gained time. The third stint was my brother's, who had to drive into the dark, which was a problem because of the bad adjustment of the headlights. But both brought it home brilliantly and finished 3rd in class.

With the points for the third place we overtook the Ford GT40 in the championship standings. And we were already second in the Division standings after the race at Zolder. The Swiss with the three great race cars gets only points for the car, he entered at the beginning of the year (Ginetta G12), because the regulations say, a team consists of 1 - 3 drivers and ONE car. If you take another car, although your entered car is ok, you make yourself a guest driver, who is not allowed to score points. If your car is irreparably damaged, you can race another car, which belongs to the same class.

I think, we don't have to be ashamed of being Champion in this Division, because we scored the points and Felix knew that he won't, if he comes with his newest toy. He had a similar situation last year.

This is the provisional (until the official confirmation) result of the Championship after the last of four races:

Dunlop FHR Long Distance Cup 2014 Division III (Two-Seater Racing Cars):

1. Lotus Europa    13,5 points from 3 races ->                          2nd race: (3/6),     3rd race: (2/2), 4th race: (3/3)
2. Ford GT40         13 points from 3 races ->    1st race: (1/1), 2nd race: (DNF/6), 3rd race: (1/1)
3. Ginetta G12        7 points from 2 races ->    1st race: (1/1), 2nd race: (DNF/6)
4. Porsche 907       6 points from 1 race ->      1st race: (1/1)

The numbers in brackets are (place/number of starters in class) for each race.

I think, this is a great succes for our team, if you keep in mind that our car is completely out of place in this Division.  :trophy:

P.S.: Have a look at the race and the damage of out little Lotus at my website http://www.europa-racing.de.to (http://www.europa-racing.de.to).
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Tuesday,October 07, 2014, 01:32:38 PM
Well done.    :beerchug:

From reading your posts during the year we all know that you and the rest of the team have been working hard and it's good that you're finally getting recognition for those efforts, it sort of makes it all worthwhile. 

And the part about repairing the car, straightening a wishbone in the pits whilst the race went on, that's the stuff of champions. So a well deserved success that you should all be very proud of.

Brian

ps - colour-matched green gaffer tape ? Anyone would think you were expecting "modifications"   ;)
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: jbcollier on Tuesday,October 07, 2014, 05:11:30 PM
Congratulations!  Hard work, perseverance and consistency win the day.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: BDA on Tuesday,October 07, 2014, 05:15:33 PM
Way to go, guys!!! That's the way not to give up. As Brian said, having the correct color racing tape shows real class!

Now it's time to get ready for next year (after a short rest)! Next year will be better, I'm sure! I can't wait to hear about it!
 :lotus:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: StephenH on Tuesday,October 07, 2014, 08:08:32 PM
Well done  :beerchug: :trophy:

I did see the pictures and story on Facebook, but my German isn't so good and I missed the level of success you achieved.
Don't worry about the minor damage, will look even better with new paint  :welder:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,October 07, 2014, 11:53:09 PM
The level of success is still provisional. I am not completely convinced that the Director of the race series wants us to be the Champion of the Two-Seater Racing Car Division, because we have no class win. But we scored well in the most important race at Spa, where all the others retired and finished in three races. No one else achieved that and that's why I think we deserve the title. It is an endurance race series and to finish first, first you have to finish.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Wednesday,October 08, 2014, 01:09:21 AM
I am not completely convinced that the Director of the race series wants us to be the Champion of the Two-Seater Racing Car Division, because we have no class win.

I don't see how anyone can stop you. You're top of the points table and supposedly they award points to decide the overall season winner.

It shouldn't matter if you finish last in every race as long as you get enough points to come top. As you say "to come first, first you've got to finish the race". If another competitor wins a race then breaks down in the next one so that you overtake them on points, well, that's what reliability and endurance racing is all about.  It's not drag racing or hill climbing where the best solo time wins, it's a series of events.

And you...  :trophy:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,October 20, 2014, 11:26:36 AM
It happened exactly like I thought it would. They searched for a constellation, which makes Felix Haas win and they found one. They took the Ginetta out of the standings and the Chevron in. At the end of the season. I think this is not fair, but that's how it works. The official closing date for the entry of the season was in February or March, but money makes the world go round.

At the end of the PDF you can see what I mean: http://fhr-online.de/cms/upload/Downloads/2014_Serienausschreibung/HLC_Punkte_2014_nach_7_Division.pdf (http://fhr-online.de/cms/upload/Downloads/2014_Serienausschreibung/HLC_Punkte_2014_nach_7_Division.pdf)
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Monday,October 20, 2014, 01:45:52 PM
Ok, I was wrong because apparently they can stop you winning. So simple that I should have thought of it - invent a time machine, go back 9 months and change the entries.

Personally I wouldn't want to accept a trophy if I had to go to those measures and in accepting the championship does no credit to the team or competition itself.  Just looking at the cars you're up against says you and your team have done remarkably well and in the place that matters (the race track) your competitors will know that as well.

Very sad to hear that news, you guys must feel awful.  All I can say is  "Illegitimi non carborundum". (yes, I know it's not really Latin, but it gets the point across  ;)  )

Brian

 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Bainford on Tuesday,October 21, 2014, 07:36:41 AM
Yes, sad to hear you have been bumped from the top. In my book you guys are the real champs  :trophy: . You have been doing a great job, and flying the 'Europa' banner high and proud. It must be very exciting sharing a track with cars the caliber of a GT40, especially when those tracks are the likes of Spa, Nurburgring, etc. Congratulations on a great year. Cheers.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: BDA on Tuesday,October 21, 2014, 08:51:36 AM
Hey Mecky,

It sounds like you were beaten by politics. For some reason, Lotus seems to attract stuff like that. Something similar happened to Doc Bundy when he was driving the Lotus Esprit X180R in IMSA in the '90s. They kept beating the Porsches and IMSA kept adding weight to the Esprit even though it had a smaller motor.

You all did great in a car that was outclassed (do I remember correctly that you are not allowed to run slicks???) and you showed very well in spite of the advantages other cars had. Your team have a reason to be disappointed  about the outcome but you shouldn't feel bad about how well you did.

Good luck in your future endeavors!  :beerchug:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Sunday,April 26, 2015, 06:02:49 AM
Hey boys,

i can report from our first race of 2015 at Hockenheim. We went to the track with a freshly painted Europa, only the engine cover was missing. We lost it while transporting the car to the painter dew to strong wind :headbanger: But we got a completely new light weight one (4 kg). Now it is painted, as well, but in Hockenheim we had to use it in neutral collour.

It was a really tough weekend. We had so much trouble. After the first practice, the radiator leaked. Solved, but after the second session the gearbox had big problems. No gear could be shifted. A selector rod inside the gearbox was bent. We could solve that just in time for the start of the race, but for the fine adjustment of the gear shifting was not enough time. First was not useable while driving. But that is only an issue while starting from nought.

The race started quiet good and my brother had a long fight with a Porsche 911, but on the longest straight at about 200 kph the windshield and its frame lost connection. The wind blew under the roof and pulled it up fitfully. It took about 15 minutes to tape it carefully and he went on. He was able to lap in about 2:19 min.

Then I went out for the second part of the race and almost had a very low positioned pressure point at the brake pedal, which I was not used to. That happened, because we changed the brake balance with a much smaller rear master brake cylinder, which caused massively braking rears. The brakeshoes wear out over 1,5 h race distance and we could not adjust it in reasonable time. It took me a lot of time to gain confidence in the brake, but when I tried to brake later, I almost crashed into the back of a BMW 2002, which has much better brakes. So I gave up on late braking and focused on bringing it home.

But then I had a very miserable feeling. It felt like the front and rear end of the car were not connected anymore. The central nut of the stub axle went lose. I came slowly to the pits and we fixed it. We had to remove the old splint pin, which was cut of, but the middle part was still inside. That took another 15 minutes. The last part of the race was all about smooth driving. And a few minutes before the end I drove one quiet quick lap, just because I wanted to show at least half of the car's potential. I drove 2:14 min, after I rolled around the track at 2:21 min the 1,5 h before. I wanted just a little satisfaction :D But with a well adjusted brake balance and all my confidence in the car, I think 2:09 min is possible.

After the distance of three hours we finished 17th out of 40 cars and 1st in class.

You can have a look at some more pics at: www.facebook.com/yart.racing (http://www.facebook.com/yart.racing)

Best regards

Stefan
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: BDA on Sunday,April 26, 2015, 09:10:39 AM
Some of that sounded downright harrowing! Getting a first in class after all that is a great result! You also know some things to fix that should greatly improve the car. All in all, it was a really productive weekend! Congratulations!!  :trophy:  :beerchug:

It looks like you redesigned your flares. I think they look great! When you get the bodywork done and the paint on your boot lid, the car will look even better!

Keep up the great work!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Saturday,May 02, 2015, 01:37:34 PM
Yes, we are quiet delighted about the result. Here you can have a look at some inboard footage of my brother, who had the first stint in the 3h race:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awY8s-SWDz4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awY8s-SWDz4)
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: BDA on Saturday,May 02, 2015, 07:33:06 PM
Great footage! Did he ever get past that pesky 911 or is it a 912?
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Monday,May 04, 2015, 05:10:38 AM
If the Lotus was as slow as a 912 on the straights, I would Not take it to a race track, but to a workshop. :deadhorse:

A lap later the roof colapsed, so he didn't pass him. On my fastet lap I even passed an Elan and it (the lap) was 5 seconds faster than this Porsche 911, but still 5 seconds of the limit with a well-balanced brake. Unfortunately the cam is not able to film for 3 hours. 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: PenP on Tuesday,May 19, 2015, 11:47:32 PM
Here's a shot of my car from last year's SVRA California Speedway vintage race.  I wound up having an oil leak and a driver's side door that had a nasty habit of opening up in left hand turns (!) – I'm hoping to be ready for this year's event next month in June.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Wednesday,May 20, 2015, 12:17:32 AM
Wow, a super clean car, some great preparation there.  June's not far away, so we'll look forward to hearing how you're getting on (and hopefully not "getting out" on left hand bends  ;)   )

Brian
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: BDA on Wednesday,May 20, 2015, 07:28:12 AM
What a beauty!!!  :beerchug:

Did you build it? Good luck for your June event! Let us know how it goes.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Saturday,March 05, 2016, 05:58:02 AM
first test of the season.
The new (wedge) engine 123hp is fantastic. It pull like a rocket up and beyond 7500 rpm.
The new close ratio gear set is just perfect and smooth.
Brakes, cooling and suspension set up are now a disaster.
In fact...
 
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: 3929R on Saturday,March 05, 2016, 06:48:33 AM
Ouch! :(
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: BDA on Saturday,March 05, 2016, 07:14:50 AM
Bummer! That couldn't have felt good!  :(
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Serge on Sunday,March 06, 2016, 07:51:00 AM
I saw the photographs on Facebook, looks painful!

Did you buy the Quaife gearset? Or did you use the old one you found?

Serge
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Valerio Leone on Sunday,March 06, 2016, 08:59:07 AM
Ciao Serge,

during the repairs I will take the chance to work on brakes, cooling and front suspension.
This power unit upgrade has affected all the rest.
the Gear set is the old one I found from Renault. It's just perfect, it match the engine power band.
I will be back soon with other upgrades.
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Wednesday,May 25, 2016, 02:41:39 AM
Sounds cool, but a pity with your crash. How did that happen?
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Wednesday,July 20, 2016, 07:29:44 PM
This season we were very inactive, after concentrating on modern racing with my brother's Osella in 2015. The 2nd place in the historic FHR endurance championship in 2014 was a success, but it was an even greater success to become 2nd in the Supercar Challenge 2015.

In 2016, after our father died last year, we did not do any racing at all. But now, I am planning to compete in the last race of the season at the Nürburgring with the Europa. I still have to repair the roof and do some other small things. But that will be not a problem for a possible start at the first weekend of october.

To be continued...
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: BDA on Wednesday,July 20, 2016, 08:19:37 PM
Sorry to hear about your dad! I was wondering why we hadn't heard from you last year.

Good luck in the new season!

 :lotus:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: EuropaTC on Wednesday,July 20, 2016, 09:48:56 PM
I can understand not feeling like racing, the loss of your dad must have been quite a blow and things wouldn't have been the same. And you can't drive fast when your mind is wandering.

But keep in touch and let's know how you're progressing, like the others on here I looked forward to reading about you & your team.

Cheers

Brian
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: StephenH on Thursday,July 21, 2016, 12:35:07 AM
November.... Nurburgring.....

How will you go in the snow?

Actually, I will be in China again in November, as I found out last month it is an easy trip from Beijing to Frankfurt and then a short drive to Nurburgring.
Maybe you need extra pit crew ;-)
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,July 21, 2016, 01:30:04 PM
The race will be on the 1st of October. In 2014 the weather was nice during this race. I hope to be lucky with the weather  :beerchug:
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: StephenH on Thursday,July 21, 2016, 11:50:57 PM
Hmm.... that might be even better, chance I have to go to UK late September or early October.
Work pays, even better :)
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: Mecky on Sunday,October 02, 2016, 02:51:06 PM
Hi Guys,

it went quite ok this weekend at the Nürburgring. We had some trouble with the water temperature. I think the radiator is not working well anymore. Some water ports are blocked by the radiator stop leak liquid we had to use. That's the reason why we had to shift up at 5500 RPM to have a stable water temperature of just a bit under 100°C.

The worst thing was the nightshift the day before we wanted to start. Somehow from one moment to the other the headgasket was blown, while the car was stationary. I drove to the garage with 70°C water and after oil change and so on the temperature exploded to 120°C in no time. Such an operation in the night before the race weekend begins... But we managed it somehow and did the suspension adjustment in the paddock. The weight of the car without fuel is 670 kg. Unfortunately we have a disbalance. Even without driver the left side is heavier (with driver 53%). The front wheels carry 42,5% of the weight and the rear 57,5%.

Both practice sessions were wet and we qualified 22nd of 44 or something like that. In the race we could not use all the power of the engine because of the short shifting. I had to give lots of places away, but the car was okay. My brother drove the second stint and had trouble with a loosened nut at the rear lower wishbone, which made the wheel move much more and the feeling terrible. That also damaged an uniball-joint so that the wheel had play for the rest of the race. But my brother brought it home very cautious.

We were the only competitor in the two-seater-racing-car 1600 ccm class and finished. That's P1 in class. There were also two other TSRC with 2000 ccm. The first retired in qualifying and the second very late in the 4h race. That's the reason why we are overall winners of the Division 3 (TSRC). At the award ceremony we were very surprised, but it was nice. But also very funny :D

Here is a nice pic: https://www.facebook.com/curbs.de/photos/a.660281187455247.1073741950.342317552584947/660281664121866/?type=3&theater
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: BDA on Sunday,October 02, 2016, 06:46:24 PM
Congratulations on your victory in Division 3!!!   :trophy:

I don't know if the rules allow, but you can find aluminum radiators on ebay. I found this one on the german ebay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/86MM-ALUMINUM-ALLOY-RADIATOR-LOTUS-EUROPA-1-5L-1-6L-1966-1976-M-T-/121375481745?hash=item1c428adf91:g:eKEAAOSwoydWr47A). Put a good fan with that and that should go a long way to solving your overheating problems!
Title: Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
Post by: StephenH on Friday,October 07, 2016, 03:09:26 AM
As the saying goes: to finish 1st, first you must finish.
Well done  :trophy:
Take the wins when luck also goes with you.