Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Members Cars => Topic started by: Mike Surber on Wednesday,March 01, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
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Greetings Lotusites or is that Europanauts? LOL Not sure if to put this here of in the "garage" section. I've had this S2 for a number of years. I had a 69 back in my college days (early 70s). For years I had dreams of what I'd do if I ever got another one. Staring with hinged/tilt nose & tail sections. Saves on the back when working on the engine & suspension. But then too I always wanted a Lola T70 or Chevron B16 loved the "style" of them. But of course could never afford such beasts. I got the chance (actually I went & knocked on his door LOL) to buy this one from a neighbor. It had been setting in his back yard for years & a branch had fallen out of a tree & smashed the windshield. Any how like so many it had suffered badly from neglect. I stared in to do the restoration but then the old urge to do modifications ala race car looks etc. I've done a lot of fiberglass work over the years some on race cars Lotus 23, Deven, Ginetta etc. I've been working on this off & on for several years & it's gone through several "incarnations". You could say I just can't make up my mind LOL. Well I've settled on a Buick 215 aluminum V8 for power. Made quite a few mods to the chassis & suspension (fully independent rear) With 15" wheels & disc brakes all around.
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:Welcome: Mike!
That's an interesting project you have there! I would warn you to make sure your frame can take the torque of your V8. I would also suggest that you think long and hard about rear 3/4 visibility but then now a days, with cameras, you can probably get around that pretty easily.
There are some guys here who are working on some interesting frame changes (e.g. Europa -> 47) so maybe you can get some ideas or confirmation from some of them.
Keep us up to date on your progress. We LOVE pictures! ;D
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I am seriously considering doing a full tube frame. Once I get the body work done. This is not just a fly by the seat of my pants project. I have help/advise from two different very experienced race car builder/restorers. By the way I'm planning on taking molds off the nose & rear & making clean new pieces.
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Wow! And I thought my little Zetec conversion was extreme -well, for me, anyhows. You have a complex project going on!! I like everything you've done. Hope you document and take pics, many people will be interested in seeing your progress.
Andyh
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I am 2 years into putting a 2GR V6 into a Europa. I know this is a ton of work to do. How long have you been at it? I will be looking forward to your updates.
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I've been at this for several years. Though it's pretty much just been setting for about the last 2 years. This time I'm going to finish it (famous last words LOL) The Buick V8 is not really as radical as it might seem. In stock trim it's only rated at about 200 horse. Mine will probably be in the 250 range. A warmed over twin cam can put out that much. But it does look really cool LOL Here's some shots of when I was working on the rear part of the frame & suspension. What isn't clear though. Is the fact I cut the "Y" & widened the rear out to accommodate the V8. Much like I understand they did for the twin cam frame. Placed 1 1/2" tubing inside the existing frame horns & welded to it. Had the rear bearing carriers/uprights modified. Though I've been thinking of having new ones cast. The Buick/Olds/Rover v8 is very light & much smaller in outside dimensions than a small block Chevy or Ford.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x470/skystone3/Lotus%20build/lotus002.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/skystone3/media/Lotus%20build/lotus002.jpg.html)
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Here's a few of the aluminum goodies I've gotten. A very heavy duty trans case & side plates. Which I'll have built into a nice strong trans by a racing company near by. The Offenhauser intake & valve covers. Although I'm now thinking on a 4 weber carb set up. Either down draft or cross over side drafts.
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Rear suspension looks very Formula Ford. What transmission are you using? What did you do for front brakes?
It's not the HP but torque that makes street cars fun. A twin cam will never come close to the torque or curve you will have.
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The suspension lay out design is pretty straight forward. Common to formula/sport/can-am type cars. Reversed lower wish bone, upper link & drag struts. The trans will be a well built VW/Hewland type.
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I like your fabricated rear uprights. Innovative to turn stock Europa uprights upside down and weld other brackets on to it. Saw your posts over on GT40's.com. Glad you realized GT40 style doors aren't practical on a Europa. Very interesting project.
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Well I still haven't given up on the idea of the roof cut outs like on the GT40. Just the method of hinging the doors. Still looking at the way the Lola T70 3B or Chevron B16. Haven't really explored the Lamborgini style yet.
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This week I've been working on the support frame for the radiator (all aluminum "racing" radiator)& pivot for the front section. Got it pretty well under control now I think. Have everything tacked together just have to finish all the welding. Some tidying up like closing off the ends of open tubes (I hate having open tube ends for moisture to get in) Then on to the aluminum sheet ducting out through the hood. I'm going to need to redo the outlet in the hood though. The way I'd made it before won't really work.
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Very interesting! I'm curious about the upper front cross member. Is there any other purpose for it other than mounting the radiator?
I dispute your assertion that a warmed over twin cam could deliver 250 hp. That sounds more like a Formula Atlantic BDA back in the day. I recognize that my information may be out of date but I do take your point there may not be as much difference to a good twin cam as it might seem. I would say that torque is more important than hp and small motors don't generate a lot of torque.
All that being said, it looks like you have thought about these and other issues pretty thoroughly. Good luck with everything and keep those updates and pictures coming! I think yours is a great addition to some pretty radical projects we're watching here. How cool would it be to get them all together at one time! Unfortunately, they aren't even on the same continent!
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Is there any other purpose for it other than mounting the radiator?
Yes & no it's a place to anchor the radiator supports yes. But also if you notice I've cut out the front luggage compartment (will need to be re glassed) That's where the gas tank will be. I had to cut it out to fit the gas tank in that space. If I hadn't needed to cut that out. The front part of the compartment would have sufficed.The reason for the top piece (it's actually pretty tin walled & doesn't weigh all that much) & the supports. Is to secure the gas tank from forward inertia in the case of a front impact or panic stop situation. It's a 17 gal. tank , & full that's a lot of weight & forward inertia. It'll also give someplace to mount the remote reservoirs for the brakes & clutch masters & the aluminum sheet ducting for the radiator air exit.
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It just gets more and more interesting! ;D
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In my theory anyway LOL The gas tank will help counter balance the extra weight of the engine in the back. It will set on center line & right over the "T" of the frame. Keeping the weight over the front axle line. I always thought that having the gas tank on the same side as the driver put the car out of balance to that side. Besides I never liked the idea of all that gas directly behind me. With no real side impact protection. By the way the radiator in an all aluminum "racing" Jeep Cherokee. It's only 11" tall but 35" wide. Good for a 4 lit. engine & the 215 is 3.5.
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I love it when a plan comes together. I just got a pain of heads with full valve train for $60 on ebay. One of the heads on the engine I'd bought was not in the greatest condition. Reasonably local about an hour away. So I can drive up & pick them up to save the shipping. I'd contacted them earlier in the week about buying them outright. But they came back with a ridiculous price. So I waited & bid on them & no other bidders LOL. Now I can move on with the work on the engine too.
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Excellent! :beerchug:
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It's almost like Christmas every day when the Postman comes (only I have to pay for it LOL). My new front shock & springs came the other day. Look great I upped the rate from stock of 100# to 150# with the added weight of the 17gal gas tank up front & what the engine will add. Probably go for 110-125# in the rear.
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I love getting to play with new toys/tools LOL I'd bought the pneumatic riveter several years ago. But it's just been setting on the shelf in the box. So I got it out today & been playing with it. Making the aluminum exiting duct for the radiator. It'll screw to the welded frame. Have to be put on with the wheels off or nose removed. My ball lock pins for that came today.
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Nice duct work!
Richard at Banks has been advising 250# springs in the front ant 140# springs in the rear. That seems really stiff but you it actually doesn't hurt the ride to any degree. Given that, you may want to adjust your expectation for spring rates. Richard is a really helpful guy and he might be able to give you some advice. His website is http://www.banks-europa.co.uk/index.php
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This is going to be a street/show car. So I'd really rather have it on the softer side than too stiff. Banks advise may be for racing or slaloms etc. But either way it's a starting place. Coil over springs are not that expensive.
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Just been reading this thread, v8 europa. Check out info on GKN47D. A europa 47 with the Buick/rover lump installed. Was built originally by lotus for GKN to show off their motor parts. I think it's in the states somewhere now. When I first saw it and sat in it 😁 It was back in 1977, by then it was 4.4 Ltr fitted with 4x 48mm downdraught webbers. It was bit of a Hybrid with S2 doors if I remember as it had a full leather interior with a radio cassette! Real beast. Had to be started with the engine cover off to reduce the chances of setting it on fire!
I digress, but it had a std chassis and I think it was kicking out 300 bhp or so, there is some info on the net about the configuration and challenges with tuning the v8 in the Europa. I old school but useful I would think Also an autocar test.
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Is this the GKN you refer to?
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GKN tagged
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Your second post is the one.
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Those funny spoilers on the front to keep the front on the ground. without them at over 125 the front would go very very light., or so I remember one the the mechanics tell me. they used to test it on the section of the M40. It was kept in the Vandervell R&D department so the Mechanics there used to service it and get it through it's MOT.
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This is going to be a street/show car. So I'd really rather have it on the softer side than too stiff. Banks advise may be for racing or slaloms etc. But either way it's a starting place. Coil over springs are not that expensive.
Just so you understand, Richard's advice was for street cars. EuropaTC runs those springs and I'll be putting them on my car soon.
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Thanks guys I remember reading about the GKN years ago. When I had my 69 in college. Didn't remember it had the Buick/Rover engine in it though. Just ordered my Weber IDF carbs & down draft manifold. Will be like they used in the Mclaren M1b. Have a Crower stage 3 cam coming too. Not trying to put out too much HP but getting the look & sound too. That front spoiler is a lot like what they did on the Lola T70 too. Funny but the lights they have for turn signals/running lights? I have identical ones to use as back up lights LOL.
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Mike,
One thing about the rear spring rates, if you're keeping the spring close to vertical (like they are on a stock Europa) then the rates you suggested might work provided you use the same length of spring as noted in the workshop manual (Lotus used a lot of preload on the stock springs). But if your springs/dampers are inclined like the 47 (or my set up) then your rates are going to be way off. If you have access to Alan Staniforths book "Race and Rally Car Source Book", there is a good write up on selecting springs. I'm starting with 275 lb/in springs in the rear of my car and I'm almost certain I'll be upping the spring rate once I get to drive the car (based on my calculations I needed a 275 rate to work with the 200 lb/in springs in the front).
Rod
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Anybody know what trans they used in either of these cars? Can't see the GKN one. But the Ford powered one certainly isn't a stock (renault) unit. Porsche maybe?
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http://47d.org/47d/might.html (http://47d.org/47d/might.html)
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Picked up the heads I just bought today. They're in great shape. Doesn't look like the engine had all that many miles on it from the lack of buildup of crud LOL Once my gasket set gets here I can get to work on the porting.
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This article may be worth reading as it goes through some of the challenges on installing a V8 in the Europa and the parts used.
http://47d.org/47d/might.html
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I read that article & can't really understand why they had so much trouble. Unless it was because of the ZF trans they wanted to use? I did exactly what was mentioned in the article. I opened up the "Y" of the frame to accommodate the width of the engine. I also reinforced it wit 2" square tubing. I'd thought about their other solution too of building a rear structure & welding it on. The engine to tranny was easy for me though. I just called Kennedy Engineering & had them make up a kit. Adapter, fly wheel & clutch. Fits just fine I'll need to put a bump in the firewall for the water pump pulley unless I get an electric one.
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Assembled the ducting to check everything. Looks good so took it back apart & started all the finish welding. Including closing off all the open ends of the tubes. I just don't like the ends open. It looks "unfinished" or sloppy to me. Could be the silversmith in me I guess. LOL Open ends & lumpy bumpy welds that should be dressed down just don't make it for me. I do a fairly credible job of torch welding (I'm not allowed to do any arc welding. Because of my pacemaker ) Actually I rather enjoy torch welding, easier to fill in those blow throughs LOL
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What I do when not working on my cars LOL
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Nice work on the car and the jewelry!
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I'm impressed with your vision and commitment to build a V8 powered Europa. Nice Jewelry work too!
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Nice welding, 'stacks of dimes'. And your silver smithing - fantastic work!
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Thanks guys it's a long road. But really I'm my own worst enemy LOL I keep changing my mind on engines & chassis, the body too. But now I have a pretty clear picture in my mind of what I want. After I get the body to the stage I can cut off the nose & tail. To take molds off for nice clean parts. I'm seriously considering making an entirely new tube frame. It's always bothered me that there is no way to adjust the front suspension. Even with adjustable A arms it's a pain to do any adjustments to the alignment. There's also the issue of cracking at the "T". Even with the stock engines let alone the higher torque of a V8 & the loads from bigger wheels & tires (15").
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Just been chugging along on my Lotus. Got the intake manifold the other day. Needs a lot of porting though & not a very good casting job (very rough). Picked up my crank & ordered the bearings today. The cam, springs & lifters came from Crower today too. In the mean time just working away on the body mods. Trying to get it ready to pull molds off. Still a lot of work before that happens though I'm afraid.
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A good manifold manufacturer will leave the ports small and rough as they have no idea what tune of engine you are building. You need to port to suit your chosen heads and carbs.
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Not this small It's for a given engine & should be close to the standard port size. I've had to hog out almost enough aluminum to cast another manifold. I've bought quite a few performance manifolds in my time. But this is so bad I've seen better castings come out of High School shop classes. One carb base port is so far off I'm going to have to have part of it welded up & take nearly 1/2" off the other side.
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One carb base port is so far off I'm going to have to have part of it welded up & take nearly 1/2" off the other side.
:o Hmm, now that's a bit more than what I'd class as "fine tuning" ! It sounds like either the company didn't have the correct template to work to or maybe a core moved during casting ?
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I've bought Edelbrock manifolds mostly in the past. You can put them right on & use them as is & everything is fine. This one the runners & ports were so small. That like I told my wife (who doesn't understand engines & porting) "If I put this on the car as is. It'd have the worst case of Asthma you ever saw" That she understood (she has it).