Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: DManglano on Saturday,October 07, 2017, 01:29:00 PM
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Looking for advice on the best way to restart an engine that has not run for 18 years.
I intend on rebuilding the 175 CD-2 Stromberg carbs.
Draining and replace old fuel. Inside of tanks look very clean.
Drain and replace engine oil. New oil filter.
Rebuild fuel pump.
Replace fuel lines.
Replace spark plugs.
Any other suggestions?
Any good restart procedure? Have watched some you tube videos and they suggest putting some Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinders and manually turning over the engine before actually restarting.
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:Welcome: , DMaglano!
I think you have a pretty good handle on it. The Marvel Mystery Oil might be a good idea in case there is any rust on the bores and/or rings. I would replace the mechanical fuel pump with an electric one, but if you're going to keep it, you should rebuild it. Make sure you have a metal 'T' between the carbs. It's surprising that your tanks don't have any rust! I don't like the lip around the top because it can collect water. I might paint them with some good epoxy but it's a pain to take them out and if they're as nice as you say, you can postpone that. While your carbs are off, it would be a great time to install a Pertronix ignition.
When you go to start it the first time, disconnect the ignition and make sure you get oil pressure before you fire it up.
I may have gone a little overboard, but I think you have the idea.
Let us know how it goes!
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After the oil and filter change, pull the spark plugs, put a couple shots of light engine oil in the cylinders and give it a half hour to work it’s way in. Disconnect the wire from the distributor at the coil. Crank in 8 to 10 second bursts until you get oil pressure on the gauge. Put the plugs back in and it’s ready to start.
I would not rebuild the carbs until after you get it running. Do drop the float bowls and dashpot covers and clean everything out though. Overhauling the carbs is an involved process and you lose all your base settings. The car ran before so the carbs should be somewhat in the ballpark. Good enough for a first start anyhow.
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Hey JB,
Like your idea of not rebuilding the carbs at first. Question though. Do I have to pull the carbs to drop the floats and dash pot covers?
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No, just take the intake plenum (box) off and you can reach under to undo the screws. I've done it loads of times. Just do one at a time. Float bowl gaskets and dashpot diaphragms might be needed. The diaphragm has two tabs. The inner one indexes to the dashpot, and the other to the carb body. It lines up the dashpot so the two holes in the bottom are towards the throttle plate (closer to the engine).
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There is a large plug sealed with an o-ring on the bottom of each float bowl. Replace these before trying to start the engine. Be sure to use O-rings suitable for gasoline service, such as nitrile (buna-N) or Viton.
Also, to reiterate very important advice from BDA, ensure the fuel line "T" between the carbs is not the original plastic piece (or any plastic piece at all). Replace it with brass or similarly reliable material. More than one Europa has burned to the ground due to failure of the O-rings or the fuel "T".
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Today I tried a restart. I made sure the pistons move freely, put in new oil, filter, plugs, and fresh gas. Gave a few short starts to make sure the everything turned over under power. Dropped the fuel line into a fresh tank of gas. Cranked her over few periods of 10 to 15 seconds but did not get her to fire. Noticed that the fuel pump did not seem to be getting any gas. Any ideas??
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If there's no fuel showing in the glass top of the pump the first thing I'd try is to prime it before turning it over. The mechanical pump is very simple with two rubber flap valves inside and I suppose if it's been left empty for several years they might be having trouble sealing in air to provide enough suction to pull fuel in. It's a standard Ford part and rebuild kits used to be very common over here.
Before a rebuild I'd dribble some fuel down the line into the pump and it you're using a 1 gallon fuel can as a temporary measure, fix it above the pump. I'd probably spin it over with the plugs removed to build up oil pressure first and that should get the pump working as it'll turn over much faster. Once it's got some fuel in the bowl then I'd expect the pump to work with the tanks in the car so I'd drop the fuel in there instead.
Brian
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With a full tank of petrol, the fuel pump primes itself through gravity.
I filled both tanks to the brim, and by the next weekend, the glass bulb was full of fuel all by itself, with no cranking.
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Still not sure if I'm having issues with the fuel pump, but am certain I'm not getting a spark to any of the plugs. Removed the distributor cap to make sure it is spinning. Which it is. Need to check the coil. Does anyone have a trick for that other than using a multimeter?
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One thing you can do is get an inductive "pen" that you touch a high tension lead while you try to run the engine. The pen lights up when current is flowing. You can use the pen on any high tension lead (coil or spark plug) to see if you're getting spark. The spark in the pen should also indicate the strength of the spark. Here's one on Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/Lisle-19380-Spark-Tester/dp/B0002STS3U/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1509995800&sr=8-3&keywords=spark+plug+wire+tester&dpID=31iDgca-27L&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
If you are in a hurry, you can take out a plug and ground it while somebody turns the engine over. If you get a strong spark, you coil is probably good.
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I had to clean the points up before I got a spark.
Check whether they are making and breaking a circuit with a test meter.
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If it's the original setup then my money would be on the contact breaker points. You can clean them roughly in-situ with emery paper but my preference would be simply to remove & replace them if needed. You can tell a spark at that location by flicking them open them with a small screwdriver - Cap removed, ignition on of course.
Other things to check - rotor arm for secure brass strip in the middle, distributor cap for eroded terminals and the spring loaded central carbon brush moving and not broken off. The internal condenser could also be at fault but generally that's burnt points and not complete failure. If the internal distributor wiring is untidy it's also possible to have a short inside if any insulation is missing/worn away.
Apart from a multimeter the only check I know of for a coil is to remove the central HT lead and watch the spark to ground as you turn the engine, something I've never been to keen on personally although it used to be common practice.
Brian
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Definitely not getting a spark and everything seems to indicate that the coil needs to be replaced. But hope springs eternal, so I'm going to get a multimeter to do a proper test. Just can't seem to find what resistance the meter should register so that I know the coil is good - or bad. Anyone have that information?
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There are many 12 volt coil testing videos on you tube.
Have you tried them?
Dakazman
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Another test is compression ,without it it’s a no-go.
Dakazman
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Definitely not getting a spark and everything seems to indicate that the coil needs to be replaced. But hope springs eternal, so I'm going to get a multimeter to do a proper test. Just can't seem to find what resistance the meter should register so that I know the coil is good - or bad. Anyone have that information?
If you suspect the coil then it's probably easier to simply replace it, they are cheap items and readily available. It's probably cheaper than a decent multimeter, but I wouldn't discourage you from buying a meter - you can never have too many toys ;)
My coil is an un-ballasted system coil and has a resistance of 3 ohms. There are different coil resistances (6/8 cyl engines have 1.5 ohm coils) and it's important if you intend to fit electronic ignition at a future date. I'm currently running a Lucas gold coil, like this one;
http://www.angclassiccarparts.co.uk/home/lotus/lotus-europa/electrical/ignition-sports-coil-lucas-dlb105-europa (http://www.angclassiccarparts.co.uk/home/lotus/lotus-europa/electrical/ignition-sports-coil-lucas-dlb105-europa)
no connection with seller, etc, it's just the first seller I recognised on google !
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Yes, but they talk about the coil reading X amount of resistance on the multimeter. Not sure if it is the same for all cars or if there is a certain amount that it should read for the Europa.
Can I just buy a replacement at my local auto parts store?
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There's nothing special or critical about the ignition coils on the Europa, they are just normal parts.
I have no experience of the Renault versions but the system in my '72 TC was originally a ballasted system with a resistor located at the side of the coil. Because I'm a Luddite and like things simple I converted it to a non-ballasted ignition coil. The ballast resistor is there to make starting easier by lowering coil voltage but by the time I got the Europa I'd been running an Elan with the same engine for over 10 years with a non-ballasted system, so I just made them both the same.
Actually thinking about it, if your engine fires when you have the starter motor turning but gives up the minute you release the key, that's normally a ballast resistor problem because apparently they do occasionally fail. That's assuming you have a ballast resistor coil on your car of course.
But as for coils, they come in different flavours with some giving a greater spark ("sports" coils) and from the info I got with my Pertronix ignition a 4 cyl engine should have 3 ohm coils, 6/8 cyls have 1.5 ohm coils. The other thing to watch out for is that you can't mix ballasted & non ballasted coils because they are designed around different voltages. Take those things into consideration and yep, you can buy one at the local shop (assuming they sell such old technology ;) )
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Still no spark. I think I need to work on the distributor. Can this be done without removing the distributor? If I do need to take out the distributor it looks like I’d first have to remove the intake manifold. Would like to avoid that. Any advice?
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It's a fiddle but you can take the distributor out without removing the carbs or intake manifold.
Take the distributor cap off. Put the car in 4th gear and roll it ahead until the distributor rotor is either pointing straight up or straight ahead -- whichever is easiest for you to see. Take it out of 4th gear. There is a bracket clamped to the distributor which has a single 7/16 (11mm) AF nut securing it to the block. In this photo it is on the lefthand side of the distributor:
http://images.lotuselan.net/lel/19114/0/Distributor.JPG
Do not undo the pinch bolt holding the bracket to the distributor. Undo the single nut holding the bracket to the block. Now slowly pull the distributor out. SLOWLY. Note which way the rotor turns as it comes out and where the rotor points when if stops turning. When you put it back together you insert the distributor with the rotor pointed where it stopped turning when you took it out. Make sure the rotor is pointed up or straight ahead (whichever you used) when the distributor is fully home.
Because you have not loosened the mounting plate clamp, when you put the distributor back in, the timing will be reasonably close.
Now, all that said, it is easier to get the distributor out if you just loosen the clamp on the mounting plate BUT you then also have to make note of the distributor body's position as well as minding the rotor. You could just mark it with a sharpie BUT pay attention and don't wash your marks off. If it might be a while before you re-assmeble it, TAKE PHOTOS. Believe me, you will forget otherwise.
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John has given you the best way of removing the distributor so all I'll add is that the jpg attached to this reply contains the workshop manual instructions for replacing the distributor, which has slightly more detail on positioning. If you follow John's method of removal you won't need to do anything at step #4 on the list (rotate the distributor body until the points open). Don't miss out the "set it at TDC" step, it might seem like a lot of fuss but you'll have to do it at some point because without a reference the chances of getting the rotor arm back in the right place is pretty low.
It's generally easier to remove the distributor if you need to replace the CB points. Given the hassle involved I would replace the condenser at the same time, don't bother with cleaning just fit new quality items from one of your Lotus specialists. I'm tempted to suggest you go to electronic ignition but as you've not had the engine running yet, it might be better to get it started on CB points which are generally simpler to fault-find.
Brian
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Brian and JBCollier,
This is great advice. Thanks.
Here are some pics of what I’m dealing with. Going to have to do some contortions to get to the nut but at least I was able to find it with your help.
Brian,
From what section and page did you find the instructions for replacing the distributor? I have an original hard copy of the shop manual and cannot find those instructions.
Thanks,
David
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Brian,
From what section and page did you find the instructions for replacing the distributor? I have an original hard copy of the shop manual and cannot find those instructions.
You won't.... that particular (and useful) page isn't included in the TC Europa manual but it is in the Elan manual.
I have no idea why they didn't just copy the Elan Engine section across to the TC Europa manual (it is the same engine after all) but they didn't, preferring instead to re-write them. As the Europa manual section has fewer pages than the Elan section I can only think it was Chapman again on his quest to "add lightness". ;)
Edit to add;
IIRC it's a 7/16" spanner you need for the bolt holding it to the block and you can get away with a very small one as it doesn't need a lot of tightening. About 3" long and you'll find it easier to work with the smaller length.
Now an admission - my luggage tray isn't bolted in place, it merely rests on the body/chassis and so it is very easy to slide it out from the rear of the car. At that point you can step into the engine bay, sit on the gearbox and the access to the distributor via the rear carb is probably the best you'll get. Heck, you can even see what you're doing !
It sounds mad, but it's far easier than stretching over the side of the car and trying to work by feel from above the carbs.
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Okay, taking the distributor out was easier than I thought, once I step into the engine compartment.
I manually turned the engine over to get piston 1 to TDC. I used a wood rod that went into the piston chamber and then held a sharpie in place with a piece of wood. Had my son turn the rear wheel that was jacked up a couple of times to mark when the rod would reach its max height. Bottom mark on the rod. See pic. Then put the car back on the ground and block the wheels and took the car out of gear. She will not be moved until after the distributor is back in place. Took pics to mark position of the distributor before removing. Removed the nut holding the distributor bracket clamp. Initially hard to get a small wrench on it but it moved with little force. Not sure if this is a good, bad or irrelevant sign. Ended up removing the nut by hand. Slowly pulled the distributor out and took another pic to show its position after removal. Enjoy the pics. Thanks for the great advice.
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Now that's progress. For someone who's clearly stepping out of their comfort zone I think you're doing great - photographs, measure points, I certainly do similar things because my mind will play tricks when it comes to re-assembly time.
The distributor looks as if it's not been touched in years. I don't know what your plans are but if I were you I'd do a complete strip down/lubricate/rebuild on that now you have it on the bench.
When it comes to returning the distributor to the car, the most common mistake I make is to have the drive cog "one tooth out" so that when the central shaft rotates as the cog engages with the camshaft in the engine block the rotor arm is pointing either fractionally before or after where it should be, which puts the timing out. Yes, you can adjust the body to compensate for this but it's simpler to just re-fit into it's correct location.
To make this easy I put the distributor cap on the body and make a small paint marker on the body where the #1 spark plug lead/terminal is on the cap. Then it's very easy to see if you've got the right "tooth" engagement. (just make sure you get #1 terminal though ;) )
Brian
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I would only add that your wood rod idea, while useful, is not as accurate as the timing marks on the flywheel. Now that we don't have to set the timing on cars (that's my excuse), it's easy to forget (at least it was for me when I recently changed the timing belt on my car) this simple and reliable indicator.
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I actually painted the marks on the flywheel so they were easier to see.
I suggest using the wooden rod to determine TDC roughly, and then looking in the hole in the gearbox, and then clean and paint the timing marks for future reference. These can then be used with the timing strobe light.
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Not to much progress after getting the distributor out. Order and received new points, condenser and rotor but have not installed them on the distributor. Reason being is that the more I look at the distributor the more I believe it is in fine shape and may not be my issue for not getting a spark. So I went back to thinking what could be the cause. Then I remember my own advice to others when working with electronics (e.g. the toaster). First make sure it is plugged in. So I put the multimeter on the battery and it read 12.5 volts. With the key out I put the meter on the wires going to the ignition coil. As I would expect no reading. Turned the key so the ignition light would turn on. Still no reading. Turned the key so the engine would crank. Engine cranked but still no reading at the coil. So now I believe my real problem is between the ignition and the coil. Either something got disconnected or the proverbial mouse eat through the wire. Just so I can get a spark, is there a safe way to hot wire the coil? As always thanks for the valuable advise.
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Ok to put a jumper wire from the battery to the coil.
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12v coil, or 9v coil via the white resister block near the coil on the chassis?
The 9v coil is boosted to 12v via the connection from the starter on starting only.
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It’s ok to bypass ballast resistors to diagnos a problem.
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It’s ok to bypass ballast resistors to diagnos a problem.
The connections on the resister block may be badly corroded and not passing the 12v required.
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It. Is a 12 volt system. There is no resistor block connected to the coil.
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Well it certainly has been sometime since I lasted posted. No real change as I'm still not getting a spark. Put in new points, condenser and rotor. Nothing. Purchases a new distributor cap and plug wires from one of the recommended parts suppliers. The cap is a match but the plug wires are all to long. I think the answer is yes but thought I'd ask the group.
Can I just cur the plug wires to match the length of the originals?
Thanks,
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Yes but make sure you don't cut them too short, and that you make good contact when screwing them into the cap or the plug leads.
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I think at this point it might be a good time to get down to basics.
Did you get a new coil or did you check that it's functioning properly? Did you check that you have the coil hooked up properly and there is juice to your coil? Make sure you have to carbon button in the top of the cap. Did you get new plugs? Are you sure the plug wires are securely attached to the cap and the coil high tension cable is securely attached to the coil and cap? You didn't forget to put the rotor in before put the cap on the distributor, did you? Did you check the wiring diagram and make sure the correct wires are attached to the coil? I'm not trying to be pejorative but when the simple things don't work, you need to check everything and even the simplest things can be assumed to be taken care of when they aren't.
On a separate point, did you ever get your fuel pump working?
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Please be pejorative. Yes to everything. And I completely understand what you mean about getting back to basics. To the point that I created a simple ignition system just to try to make sure the distributor is working properly. Used the youtube video to setup an ignition system of the vehicle. The only I wasn't sure about its the wire coming off the battery negative. looks like he ground it to the distributor. Distributor appears to be a Lucas off of a Triumph, otherwise it looks just like the on the car.
https://youtu.be/dIQ4IWSpMO0
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This may be a stupid question, but when you determined that you weren't getting any spark, were you trying to start the engine with the starter (obviously, with the ignition turned on at the key. This would require an assistant.)?
Earlier, I recommended that you get an inductive "pen." Everybody has their own way of running down ignition problems but I find this a very handy and inexpensive tool. It is very handy because it allows you to see if your high tension wires are transmitting any current without taking anything apart. Because the distributor is under the carbs, it's even more handy on a Europa TC. With this "pen" you can determine if you're getting current from the coil to the distributor. If not, then there is a problem either with the coil and/or how it is connected or the connection at the distributor. If you are getting good current to the distributor, then you can check the spark plug wires.
The first part of your video is a good introduction to the stock Europa ignition. He had a ground wire on his distributor but you don't need that because the distributor is grounded to the engine and it should be grounded to the chassis.
On the front page of this forum is a link to wiring diagrams. You can use one of them to make sure your coil and condensor are wired correctly.
Here is a link to one of those "pens" I mentioned: https://smile.amazon.com/Tester-Ignition-Testing-Indicator-Diagnostic/dp/B07588RK1H/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_4?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1524451854&sr=1-4-fkmr0&keywords=Inductive+ignition+test+pen
You may be able to find them at a car parts shop.
Let us know what you find out.
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I'll bet you're getting fed up with that "Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious" and it not starting, by now I'd be calling it names and kicking tyres !
Ok, I'll be serious. Firstly I'll second the ignition pen idea. I've not got exactly that tool but something which operates in a similar fashion and just slips between the plug and HT lead cap so it gives an indication of the spark. In fact if I ended up buying a set of 4 so I could check all cylinders at once.
With everything being replaced there's few things I can think of. I remember buying a distributor cap from a supplier and when it arrived the carbon brush in the centre was broken and wouldn't reach the rotor arm. Fortunately the broken bit fell out when I unwrapped it so I didn't have to be a genius to find that one. Ebay seller not packing stuff properly....
There are internet myths about the quality of rotor arms (loose rivets ?) and electrical parts such as the condensers/CB point sets but they seem to be mainly concerned with short lives rather than dead on arrival. Worth looking with a critical eye though.
After that I come down to "me messing up". I have incorrectly assembled the points and condenser in the past so there's been a short. I think I got the insulating washer wrong or maybe it was broken insulation on the wire from the distributor pigtail block to the points, memory is hazy. It's years ago but I do remember chasing the fault after I'd serviced the car and it wouldn't start.
I can understand why you want to get the car started with OEM stuff and I think I'd probably want to do the same myself. But one thing that comes to mind is that Pertronix is much simpler.... ;)
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On the bad rotor arm issue. yes they are about from new! and had to deal with one on another car. took us ages to sort.
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Diagnosing points ignition systems for no-spark is a process of elimination. If you start randomly replacing things, you may just make matters worse. Get a simple 12v test light. Digital multimeters can "smell" voltage through some pretty awful, non-functioning circuits. The test light applies a small load which helps reveal bad connections.
First:
- ignition power at coil? Bulb is bright.
Second:
- test light on the coil terminal going to the distributor, turn the engine over slowly (plugs out, in gear and push). Light should alternate between dimly lit (points open) and off (points closed).
Third:
- hold coil ignition wire close to engine ground while the engine is turning over on starter. Nice, fat, yellow spark that jumps a good sized gap of 5mm to 10mm.
Please check those three things and report back.
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Got my spark. Seems I didn't have the gap breaker (point), condenser, and the thing that connects to the negative on the coil properly completing a circuit. Once I made sure they were all connected (touching) my simple ignition system on the kitchen table worked and I was able to get a spark. Now it's time to put the distributor back in the car and make sure I'm getting a spark to all 4 plugs. One step closer to a restart.
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Congratulations! :beerchug:
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Well not only was I able to get a spark but I also put the old rotor, cap and wires back on and tested with the original coil. Off the car ever thing worked. Got sparks through each of the wires. So here is where I made my rookie mistake. When I put the battery back into the car I reversed the polarity. Recognized my mistake before the key was and turned and then reinstalled correctly. Now I get no power whatever. Battery shows 12.5 volts. Ground shows 12.5 volts. When I check against the exhaust manifold I get 12.5 volts. But when I turn the key nothing. No ignition light. No turn of the starter. Thinking I may have blown a fuse but can’t tell. Anything else I should check? Would reversing the polarity do any damage even if you don’t turn the key? So #$@!(( at myself.
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It would fry your alternator diodes, virtually instantly.
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Would that affect your ignition, though? You should be able to start the motor without an alternator. Maybe you have to disconnect the alternator first. If that doesn't work, it sounds like you're going to have to start following wires. Are you getting juice to the starter? Ammeter? Ignition switch? Coil? Study the proper wiring diagram (there are links to nice colorized diagrams on the main page of the forum. Follow the wires from the + side of the battery until you find were you stop getting current.
After you figure this out, you'll need to take your alternator to a shop to fix your diodes.
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No power to the ignition or starter.
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I don't have an alternator wiring diagram to hand but from what you've said I would think John is on the money with the alternator diodes, that's where I'd start looking. Unfortunately these cars aren't like moderns with fuse protected circuits, there's nothing to protect you from accidentally reversing polarity and alternators don't like that or running without any load.
I've posted the top part of the federal diagram. You should be getting power to the starter motor solenoid which then follows to the alternator, ammeter and from this your ignition switch is powered. If nothing is happening at the ammeter then it sounds like the alternator is the problem.
I'd be looking to swap the alternator myself, or at least get it checked by an electrician. You can replace diode packs on the Lucas alternators, I'm not sure about the model you have there but I'd bet an electrician could sort it for you.
As an aside, I'd guess with the alternator out of the circuit & it's drive belt disconnected you should be able to hot wire the ignition and start the car, but I'm not sure that's worth the trouble until the state of the alternator is known.
Brian
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Might also burn out the ground strap and the ammeter.
Power to the starter is directly from the battery. Start at the battery and follow the large positive and negative cables as laid out in the wiring diagram.
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I'd also like to check the fuse but can't seem to find the fuse box. I looked under the dash (driver and passenger side) but couldn't find a box with the 4 fuses. Does someone have a picture of where it should be located? Thanks,
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The ignition and starter aren't fused so that's not your problem. In any case, the fuse box houses 4 fuses and it's on the passenger side just below and behind the dash. You'll probably have to push the tunnel cover a bit out of the way.
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The ignition and starter aren't fused so that's not your problem. In any case, the fuse box houses 4 fuses and it's on the passenger side just below and behind the dash. You'll probably have to push the tunnel cover a bit out of the way.
Where the passenger's left knee would be on a LHD car.
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Panel is mounted on the tunnel on the passenger side just under the dash
(http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/electrical/fusebox_files/fusebox4.jpg)
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Battery charged to 13.85 volts
Charge at ground - 13.85 volts
Charge at engine block - 13.85 volts
Charge at starter solenoid - 13.85 volts
Checked ignition coil.
3.5 ohm at primary
9.6 ohm at secondary (a little low but should still be able to turn over the car)
Fuses are all good
Taking alternator to be tested.
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You can take the plugs out of the alternator, it has no part to play in getting battery power to the ignition switch, which is fed by the plain brown wire coming from the starter solenoid.
The brown wire with yellow trace is the supply from the alternator when it's charging. It doesn't supply battery power at startup.
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The manual has 3 electrical drawing. One for UK, Federal, and non-Federal. I believe the non-Federal applies to my car as it is the only one that shows a color for the wire from the starter solenoid to the ignition (WR). I have power at the start solenoid. How do I test if power is getting to the ignition switch? Could it now just be a bad ignition switch that I need to swap out? Here are pics of the starter solenoid and the ignition switch wires.
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I think you should choose the wiring diagram based on your VIN. Check this out: http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=752.0
But at this point, it probably doesn't matter which one you choose as the part you're interested in will be the same for any TC.
I think you might confused with starter and solenoid. If, with the ignition switch at the start position (second click), you get voltage between the white/red wire at the solenoid and ground, there is nothing wrong with your ignition switch. If the starter doesn't turn, there is something wrong with your solenoid or starter.
It's always good advice to go with John. If your ammeter is fried, you won't get juice to your ignition switch. If you are getting voltage between the + terminal of the battery and the engine, then your ground strap is ok (but should check it anyway.
To follow the current from the battery to the ignition switch:
Check the voltage between ground and the starter post (the one with the big brown wire). If you're getting battery voltage, check the voltage between ground and the large brown wire at the ammeter. If you get battery voltage there, turn on the ignition and check the voltage between ground and the brown/white wire at the ignition switch.
If your ammeter is gone, I'd advise you to replace it with a volt meter. You connect all the wires going to and from the ammeter and then run a new hot wire from the fuse box to the new volt meter and a ground wire from the other post to a good ground. You will not need a volt meter to run your car after you've connected the ammeter wires.
Let us know what happens.
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It sounds like you are using a digital multimeter to check for power. I would use a test light. A digital multimeter will show a voltage reading through the rattiest of connections. A test light applies a small load to the circuit and can be much more useful when diagnosing an issue.
Now, let’s get back to basics.
You hooked up the battery backwards, not unusual BTW. So, first, disconnect the large wire on the alternator. Now hook up the battery properly, cleaning the connections at the same time — clean, bare metal on metal covered with petroleum grease (vasoline). Follow the ground large ground wire to the chassis or engine. Clean its connections. Find the ground strap that runs from the engine to the chassis and clean its connections. Now follow the large positive wire (usually to the starter solenoid) and clean its connections.
Now briefly touch the large wire to the alternator back onto its terminal. Any sparks? (Probably not, just good to make sure). All good? Hook it back up. Sparks? Alt fried, leave it disconnected for now — it will need to be repaired or replaced.
Get your test light and hook it across the battery. Note how bright it is. Head to the ignition switch and hook the lead from the test light to chassis ground. Use the test light’s probe to test for power at the brown or brown/white wire at the switch. If there is no power, then there is a problem between the switch and the connections at the starter solenoid. Use the wiring diagram to find and test each connection until you isolate the problem.
Do all that first and report back as I’m typing all this on a particularly small phone...
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PS: The reason I’m asking you to clean connections is that they tend to “fry” when a very large current flows through them.
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Sorry for the delayed response.
Took the alternator to shop that rebuilds them. He confirmed that it's shot. Unfortunately he cannot rebuild because he can't get the parts. Putting the alternator on the back burner.
Used the test light. Good light at the battery. Good light at the ground to the chassis. Can't find the ground from the engine block to chassis. Good light at the starter solenoid. Good light at the brown wire attaching to the ammeter. No light at the brown/white wire from the ammeter. No light at the ignition switch. I guess that confirms I need a new ammeter or to get it rebuilt.
The Lucas part number is 36426B. Have seen a similar 30 amp ammeter made by Smith. Not sure if it would be a replacement. Anyone know?
In the meantime, can I connect the brown at the ammeter to the brown/white wire without frying anything else. That should at least get me power to the ignition switch, starter, etc... and I can at least keep working to an engine restart. Thanks,
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Yes, you can connect the brown (N) and brown/white (NW) wires together, no problem.
Any ammeter can be used. The original was Lucas though the rest of the gauges were Smith. Knowing Chapman, the Lucas version was cheaper.
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Any ammeter can be used. The original was Lucas though the rest of the gauges were Smith. Knowing Chapman, the Lucas version was cheaper.
:) now here's a bit of either "off topic trivia" or internet myth.
It always puzzled me why we had one Lucas gauge and the rest Smith so a few years ago I decided to find a period Smith's ammeter in the same font to match up the set. I couldn't find one but picked up that back in the olden days of the British motor industry Smith & Lucas were the two big players for automotive electricals and carved up the market between themselves.
Smiths did the instrumentation but no doubt in some back-room deal they decided that because Lucas did the charging systems they would also provide the ammeters as part of that circuit. Hence we got Lucas Ammeters but Smiths Voltmeters. You can find Smith's ammeters these days but they aren't exactly the same as the instruments used in our cars, but after finding that little gem I decided to leave mine the same anyway !
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Ok, so hot wiring the car got me power. Still did not achieve a start. But the positives are that the fuel pump is working. Cool that you can see it pump through the glass bowel. Also due to endless cranking the oil pressure gauge showed pressure. That's a big thumbs up. Did almost get the engine to fire once or twice, with a big back fire that blew the exhaust pipe from it connects to the muffler. So I figure with all the fiddling done to the distributor it is way out of time. Getting a timing gun but the manual isn't clear on the timing. Should I be timing the engine so that spark plug 1 is at TDC at idle (cranking in this case)? Another timing tidbits are of course welcome.
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If you suspect the timing is so far out that the car won't start then I would set the static timing first and see what that brings. Mine is 12 deg BTDC, if you are on Stromberg carbs then I think that's 5 deg but check your manual.
You can set that very crudely with a test bulb bulb between the coil terminal to the distributor and earth which will be good enough to start the engine and then you can move on to the timing light. It will be easier than trying to adjust using a timing light while you're cranking the engine.
Brian
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Brian is correct - for Stromberg cars, the ignition is 5 BTDC static, for Dellorto cars it is 12 BTDC static. If you're not familiar with static timimg, here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpp67aqwM2Y
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Happy to announce that she is running. Have to give credit to Dan Smith who I meet at a meeting of my local Lotus club - Lotus Corps www.lotuscorps.org. Turns out Dan lives 10 minutes away and was willing to take a look at the car. Next thing I know we are check compression, ignition, spark plugs, firing order, fuel pump, breaker gap on the distributor, etc… Not finding anything out of sort we decide to try and start her. Dan quickly finds that one of the dash pots doesn’t want to go up, and when you force it up it stays up. On the other carb gas is leaking out of float bowl. So off come the carbs, only to find out that the o-rings have split and allowing a lot of extra air into the fuel mixture. Time to rebuild the carbs. Dan takes them home so that they can soak in carb cleaner while we wait for the carb kits to come in from R&D Engineering. Following weekend we rebuilt the carbs. Interesting to note that the original diaphragms, needles, floats were all in working order. Even before Dan put them in carb cleaner he said the bowl and other internal parts were extremely clean. Put them back on and turned the key. She still wouldn't start. So the next thing was to make sure the distributor is in the right position for 5 degrees BTDC. The other important point was to make sure we were also on the compression stroke. Little trick Dan told me is to open the oil cap and look at the cam lobe. The cam lobe should be point towards the outside of the car. However on this car at BTDC the visible lobe was pointing up or down. Can’t remember, put certainly not out. This was very odd and it led Dan to think that we were not at TDC. So we took a long wooden rod and placed it in cylinder 1. Rotated the rear wheel and could see that when the marking on the flywheel showed TDC the rod was at its lowest point. When I rotated the rear wheel and moved the rod to its highest point there were no markings on the fly wheel to indicate TDC. After a lot of scratching I remember that many years ago the engine did come out after a bad valve job almost destroyed the engine. Best we can figure is that whoever rebuilt the engine put the flywheel back in the wrong position. Crossing our fingers we marked the new TDC on the flywheel and rotated around to 5 degrees BTDC. Made sure everything else was were it was supposed to be, hit the key and after a few turns she fired. Had to give it a few more tries until there was clear flow of gas to the carbs but then she ran at idle and actually sounds rather smooth at higher revs. Dan says we still have some fine tuning but I’m just happy we got her running. Could not have done it without Dan. Wish I could post a video so you could hear her. Sounds pretty good after 20 years.
Well, I guess this means I’m onto the next phase. With someone like Dan, a local Lotus club and an online Europa community I’m confident that she will be heading down the road soon.
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I'm glad you got her running! Since most cars are timed on the crankshaft dampener or pulley so it's not surprising that someone would not think about the fact that the TC is timed from the flywheel.. Having the flywheel installed incorrectly is certainly not optimum and might be worth indexing it correctly. I doubt that you can determine TDC very accurately just by watching a dowel in cylinder #1 and 5 degrees BTDC would be difficult to gauge too. Having the flywheel installed properly would be very useful.
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The crankshaft pulley on the front of the motor can only be assembled one way and it will tell you if the flywheel has been positioned correctly or not. Just turn the engine until the flywheel shows 0 degrees and then go check the notch on the front pulley. It will be either perfectly next to its own 0 degree mark on the engine, or 180 degrees to the opposite side or 'somewhere in between' (60/120 degrees off to either side).
If this shows you that the flywheel is 180 degrees wrong, you can still use it for timing the engine, just hook up your strobe light to cylinder 2 or 3. This will be more precise than using the wooden rod to mark the flywheel zero. 8)
I was not so lucky, as it turns out that my flywheel has been assembled 120 degrees wrong long time ago...
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I'm glad to hear you got your Lotus running. A mis-indexed flywheel is a curious problem, but once discovered is easily dealt with. It must be great to finally hear the Twin Cam making noise.
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At some point I expect that I'll have to separate the trans from the engine. I can the position the flywheel so that it is correctly indicating TDC. Interesting to note that the fly wheel has markings for 30, 20, 10 degrees BTDC but not 5.
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That is a bit surprising. Re-indexing the flywheel would give you a chance to have the 5° BTDC mark added to your flywheel. Maybe somebody here can convert the 5° BTDC static with timing at idle or at some specific rpm. Maybe one of those marks coincide with that.
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Here’s a You Tube link if you’d like to see the engine running.
https://youtu.be/tZk1aQkZFvw
You may have to copy and paste into you search bar.
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So just finished doing some more tuning on the engine and balancing the carbs. One interesting discovery was what was keeping one of the dashpots from moving freely. It was hard to lift it up and then it would very slowly come down. It turned out to be one of the dampers. At the end of the damper rod is a c clip thatt holds a spacer/roller. Above the spacer/rollers is a washer that has a flat side and a beveled side. Turns out that this washer was installed incorrectly. Once we flipped it into the right position it must have allowed the oil to pass through.
Okay. Now for the big question. I thought my next step would be to remove the body and inspect the chassis to make sure it is still structurally sound, blast it of any rust and paint with a rust inhibitor. My new friend who helped me get her running does not agree. I'd like to hear from the group. Remeber, I'm not trying for a showroom restoration, just looking to get her road worthy and safe.
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Get underneath and poke the bottom of the chassis hard with an ice pick. If it's solid, no need to take it apart but do spray the inside of the chassis with a non-hardening rust inhibitor.
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I thought my next step would be to remove the body and inspect the chassis to make sure it is still structurally sound, blast it of any rust and paint with a rust inhibitor. My new friend who helped me get her running does not agree. I'd like to hear from the group.
Removing the body is something you usually do when forced into it in order to make repairs/replace or if you're aiming for an "as new" restoration. As you've ruled out the the latter then you can make a reasonable assessment of the state of the chassis without removing the body. I only took the body off my car because I'd seen corrosion when doing routine checks, and at that stage I didn't have a garage pit, just axle stands and a trolley jack.
These were the main areas I found, the one I noticed first was the corrosion around the engine mounting area and that was probably the most serious. As you can tell, most of my problems were at the rear of the car but the other area to check is the front "T" cruciform structure. I replaced the sheet metal where the pedals bolt on and also re-plated the bottom area of the front crossmember. That was because it's a common fail point on the Elan chassis and although it felt sound I was concerned about internal corrosion. I've no pictures to prove it but inside the box section was very clean and the job wasn't needed.
Basically if you go round underneath and either use John's ice pick or a hefty screwdriver, you'll soon find any problem areas. In the UK MoT test they look for any corrosion within 30cm of a suspension or other mounting point, that's not a bad guide to start with.
Brian
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I’m a big believer of frame off rebuilds, especially if you plan on keeping the car. I know I’m the minority but think about it......you will know every inch of your car. I’m on my third frame off rebuild and it is so much easier to rebuild and replace components with the body off. Plus, the Europa and Elan chassis are well known to rust over the years. If your going that route, do yourself a favor and have the chassis media blasted (take it to a shop that does grave head stone engraving. They have walk in blast rooms and are very inexpensive). Then paint a reassemble, replacing all rubber bushings and anything else that is worn.
The above advise is only if you are determined, willing to steadily work on your project and are known for not giving up. If you lose interest quickly, don’t bother taking the body off, you never get back on the road (I can’t tell you how many un-finished projects I hear about).
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Anecdotally I would say 90% of all disassembled cars are never put back together by the person who took them apart. Further, taking a car apart makes it much more likely to be scrapped or parted out than restored. Obviously this group is a bit of bright spot in this regard but even here the amount of work required is often underestimated. Life is busy, hard to predict and fraught with unexpected challenges and changes. If you have a running car with a good sound chassis, don't take it apart. Enjoy it as it is.
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The places they normally rust are;-
1) The bottom of the front cross member where the closing plate is held to the chassis with 3 x 7/16 head bolts (between the suspension bottom arms).
2) Where the plate is on the bottom where the chassis becomes a Y, so at the front of the engine
3) Below the battery
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I agree with everyone on this thread about body off restorations. I think it depends on our motivation, your mechanical aptitude, and the condition of your frame.
If your frame shows serious rust, then obviously, it must be addressed. If you are a restorer like Certified and/or you are driven to know all the ins and outs about your car - and as JB says, you are committed to finishing it - then a body off is a possibility even if the frame seems in good shape.
If you aren't sure of your commitment and the frame and there is no serious rust, I think that embarking on a body off is a mistake for the reason JB stated. You will miss out on a lot of driving enjoyment and regardless the condition of your frame, motivation, etc., the loss of that driving enjoyment should be factored into your decision.
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One thing that's occured to me during the day about this question is the simple fact that if you can drive the car then you're in a far better position to do a full scale renovation should you need to, and that's a really big plus.
I drove my Elan for probably 3 or maybe even 4 years before embarking on the chassis change. By that point I had lists of all the things I wanted to do and had been collecting parts for months; it was definitely a planned job and went like clockwork with the car off the road for less than a week.
The Europa took far longer. I'd driven it for years but the chassis problems came as a surprise, it wasn't that well planned and took ages to sort it out. But even so I knew the health of all the mechanical components and so knew that putting the gearbox back untouched (for example) was going to work.
I'm not going to argue that a body off, chassis up rebuild will be better because of course it will.
However it's also the most expensive and time consuming thing you can do because you either take the risk that "the gearbox will be fine" or you overhaul everything. Even outsourcing jobs that's not going to happen quickly, just look how long some restorations have taken on this forum (and we're all enthusiastic about the cars).
If it's a pile of bits then that's entirely different and there's nothing to do apart from a full rebuild. But John & BDA are right, if it's running, drive it. At least then you'll know if you like the car and would be prepared to spend weeks/months of your time and certainly a ton of cash in rebuilding it.
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I would also say that it's very difficult (at least for me) to do a limited restoration. There is always something else to fix up! :)