Author Topic: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid  (Read 6115 times)

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Offline Grumblebuns

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Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« on: Saturday,September 06, 2014, 08:53:10 AM »
This whole project started out with the intention of keeping the stock Lucas starter during the re-assembly of 3747R. During the hook up of the battery cable to the starter, I discovered that the threads for the cable attachment stud were stripped from previous cross threading. This was the start of my month long journey into discovering the mysteries of permanent magnet gear reduction starters (PMGR).

With the stock starter unusable as is, I had a couple of options. First was to take the starter to an auto electric shop and see if they could replace the stud. The second was to upgrade to a gear reduction starter. I remembered picking up a gear reduction starter for a TC engine many years ago from ebay and managed to dig it out so that was the direction I took.

The first issue in fitting the PMGR starter was it's proximity to the exhaust pipe just aft of the muffler. The exhaust pipe was in fact touching the starter motor. Moving the motor around its mounting bracket, I found only one orientation of the motor to the mounting bracket that will maximize the distance of the unit to the exhaust pipe and not interfere with the mounting bolts to the bell housing. This orientation unfortunately positions the battery attachment stud right up against the oil pan. With the starter motor bolted up, there is around 1/8” to 3/16” clearance between the stud connection and the pan. Logically knowing that there is almost no chance of a catastrophic short, I was still a bit uneasy with this setup.

Still not being comfortable with the closeness of the battery connection to the oil pan, I looked into the possibility of using a generic Ford remote start solenoid to power the starter motor. Besides more consistent starts with the elimination of reduced voltage/current to a heat soaked starter motor wiring, the biggest advantage is a that there is no battery power to the starter motor cable until the start switch is turned on, or so I thought.

Unfortunately, as I later found out during my research, PMGR starter are required to have power to their motor/solenoid connection from the battery to prevent starter run on after the start switch is released. This little fact negates the “power to the motor until needed” advantage of the remote start solenoid. Since the cable to the PMGR starter motor will always hot with the remote starter solenoid, I found myself back to the original dilemma.

At this point I started looking at protective boots and coverings for the power connection to the starter.
I saw that RDE supplies a right angle connection for the gear reduction starter that he sells. The connection moves the hook up point behind the starter motor but more importantly has a hard plastic cover that protects the original stud and most of the connection. I used the diagrams from following link to perform my final hookup.

http://novaresource.org/starter.htm


The pictures show the final wiring setup of my remote starter solenoid with the PMGR starter. It will be a couple of more weeks until I can test my work. I still have some final minor hook ups to complete on 3747R before starting up the car for the first time during my ownership. In the meantime, any technical additions, corrections or warnings will be greatly appreciated; may save my car from fire.

Joji Tokumoto
Fallbrook, Ca

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #1 on: Saturday,September 06, 2014, 10:45:27 PM »
Thanks for posting Joji, my starter motor is ok at the moment but I'd also considered a modern reduction gear replacement as they seem to be the thing nowadays.  My Elan still has the very old "throw-out" starter which is likely to need replacement before the pre-engaged Europa item but I'm assuming "same engine, same problem".   

I'm interested if it makes for easier starting so please post a follow-up when you get it on the road ?

Brian

Offline 3929R

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #2 on: Sunday,September 07, 2014, 10:12:27 AM »
Looks good Joji. I installed a gear reduction starter a couple of years ago and it has been GREAT. I don't remember any issue with the mechanical side of the installation but I did have trouble figuring out how to wire it. The gear reduction starter does not use the hot start circuit/wire.

I think I have some pictures of it installed on my other computer and will try to post a picture or two tomorrow.
Mark
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

Offline BDA

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #3 on: Sunday,September 07, 2014, 11:00:16 AM »
I also have a gear reduction starter and my exhaust follows the stock routing but I don't seem to have any problems with heat - but I will take another look now - so I'm a little surprised you're having clearance and proximity problems. Caution will probably be repaid here.

I know first hand how heat can be a problem for starters - not just solenoids. It's been a long time, but as I remember, my Spridget race car had a remote solenoid that was mounted far from the exhaust. I don't remember where the starter was in relation to the headers, but I do remember that whenever I fell off the road and the engine died, that was the end of my practice, qualifying, or race because it would never start till it cooled down.

Nice post. That can certainly be useful to people!


Offline 3929R

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #4 on: Monday,September 08, 2014, 07:33:44 AM »
For what it's worth....
Looks to be the same starter, but mine has a British Starters sticker. I also rotated the starter to avoid the exhaust  (same orientation as yours). I do have minimal clearance between the oil pan and hot wire stud but have not had any issues during 2 years of occasional street driving.

(the black starter is the original)
Mark
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Wiring a TC gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #5 on: Monday,September 08, 2014, 08:39:58 AM »
A couple of possible reasons why I'm having interference issues with this particular starter is that it is an earlier version for one generic to the Lotus twin cam motors, the later versions may have a different style mounting plate. The second reason is that my car is fitted with a Dave Bean header which may be routed slightly different to the underside of the oil pan. All speculation, can't be certain until I order a current version of a PMGR for my other TCS with stock exhaust. I'll update when I get to it.

Although my older version of the PMGR starter does not have provision for a cold start connection on the starter, some of newer versions may. The attached picture is a recent S2 starter ordered form RD Ent. Adding a remote solenoid will allow using the cold start lead to the coil. In the picture of the remote start solenoid, the second small terminal with nothing attached is the attachment point for the cold start connection. Energizing the solenoid will send a 12v signal directly tot the coil.

All of my TC starting issues have been cold starts. Come out to the car in the morning, go to start on the ignition switch and all you get is a click and ammeter pegging out in the discharge direction. I don't remember how many times I disassemble the stock start solenoid to clean the contacts, reassembled, and still get the same frustrating results. Here I was, at that time,  an electrician stationed aboard a US Navy nuclear sub not being able to figure this simple 12v starting system out. It wasn't until I started looking in the rest of the wiring that I partly fixed the starting issue. I had massive corrosion on the terminal lead attached to the starter. I cut back around an inch and a half and re-lugged the cable. Removing this high resistance choke point apparently fixed most of my cold starting issues. I still had some intermittent starting "misfires" afterwards but not as bad as before.

There have been a lot of discussion of starting issues on the Europa Yahoo list over the years and the consensus was that a remote starter was the final fix, we'll see.       

Offline 3929R

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #6 on: Monday,September 08, 2014, 09:38:30 AM »
Currently I have a manual cold start circuit.  My cold start routine is to try to start the car, when it turns over but doesn't fire I then open the rear deck, pull the lead off the stock button resistor, plug the lead onto an aftermarket lower resistance ballast resistor, get back in and start the car, let the car warm up a bit, turn off the car, reconnect the original button resistor, get back in the car, restart, and go.  :huh:

I fear I will fry my points if I drive with the lower resistance ballast resistor connected. Ironically I plan to remove my points and switch to electronic ignition and thereby no longer use a ballast resistor at all.
Mark
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

Offline BDA

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #7 on: Monday,September 08, 2014, 11:00:53 AM »
I love my Pertronix ignition. My engine was built using an optical ignition (it was built in 1980 so I suspect it used an incandescent light rather than an LED), and it gave out on me while I was in the left lane of the Interstate! I replaced it with Pertronix ignition including their Flame-Thrower coil. I have had zero problems with it. My tach would bounce quite a lot after about 3000 or so. With the Pertronix, the tack is solid. Now, I haven't driven a lot of miles on it, but I haven't heard of anybody who has had a problem with it. I recommend them highly.

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #8 on: Monday,September 08, 2014, 11:09:38 AM »
Mark, looking at your pictures we probably have the same starter. I'm may be overly paranoid about closeness of the battery connection on the starter being so close to the oil pan but I've seen the results of tools touching full battery voltage to ground. That's the reason why I'm trying to insulate the battery lead as much as possible from the oil pan.

Your starter apparently does not have a cold start connection, same as mine. If I had a ballast coil on my TCS, I would have hooked up the cold start lead to the second terminal on the remote start solenoid. This may be a pretty cheap fix until you get the electronic ignition installed. 


Offline 3929R

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #9 on: Monday,September 08, 2014, 04:49:55 PM »
Sad thing is I already have a Pertronix ignition, distributor, and coil. I just need a new rotor..... and the motivation to install it it all. Other than the inconvenient cold starts, my Europa is running great and thus I just haven't felt like doing much other than driving it in my greatly limited free time.   
Mark
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

Offline BDA

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #10 on: Monday,September 08, 2014, 06:45:18 PM »
I hear you! Changing the ignition and setting the timing is a real chore in the Europa. On the other hand, once it's done...

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #11 on: Friday,September 26, 2014, 11:13:51 AM »
Turned the motor over with the starter yesterday for the first time. With all plugs removed, the engine sounded like a turbine spinning over. On the third crank, saw the oil pressure gauge twitch. On the fourth crank, it slowly started rising up scale. On the fifth crank got a steady 35# on the gauge. Heard no sounds of mechanical distress so was confident on the actual motor start.

This morning with my neighbor present with a fire extinguisher ready, I cranked 3747R over for the first time under compression. After five attempts with not even a hint of a hiccup, we pulled a plug to check for spark. and got nothing. Poking around the distributor, I found that the 12v lead from the coil to the distributor is not hooked up. I'll try to locate the lead after lunch and try again. 

Even with all plugs installed, the GR motor turns the motor over at a pretty good rate under compression. I forgot to check current draw earlier.

Yep, the low tension lead from the distributor to coil was off. Re-connected, the motor started on the second crank. Engine sounds real good, the only issue is high idle speed, around 1500 RPM even with the idle adjust backed all the way out. Getting too hot in the garage to work today, defer till tomorrow. I'm real happy right now.   
« Last Edit: Friday,September 26, 2014, 12:01:03 PM by Grumblebuns »

Offline BDA

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #12 on: Friday,September 26, 2014, 02:25:21 PM »
Congratulations, Joji!!! That's great news! That has to feel good! So now that it runs, albeit with a fast idle, what's next and when do you think you'll get it on the road? Is that a TC?


Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #13 on: Saturday,September 27, 2014, 08:05:26 AM »
I was sweating bullets the first time I turned the engine over but once it started and kept running with no smoke, electrically or mechanically, I feel a bit better about my handiwork. The car is currently Planned Non Operational and won't be legal to drive on the road until the end of November. I did get full coverage insurance on it yesterday so I can do short test drives without too much worry. This is the other thread on my car:

http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=557.0

I have a couple of ideas of what could be causing my high idle. I'll investigate further this week end and see if I'm right.

Joji Tokumoto
Fallbrook, Ca 

Offline kiwiokie

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Re: Wiring a gear reduction starter with a remote start solenoid
« Reply #14 on: Sunday,December 20, 2015, 11:57:19 AM »
Just finished the install on my 73TCS and found the old solenoid had two small gauge wires.  This is not shown on the instructions from RDE.  Is the second wire what is referred to as the cold start?  I did not connect and the starter works fine but wondered how the cold start comes into play and whether I should connect it?  Also found my battery connection would only just reach the positive terminal which was my limiting factor on rotation of the motor.