Author Topic: Precious Bodily Fluids  (Read 3331 times)

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Online surfguitar58

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Precious Bodily Fluids
« on: Saturday,January 20, 2018, 09:22:27 AM »
As I wait for the ice cave where I store my car for the winter to melt, I have been occupying myself trying to get a handle on what fluids I need to stock/replace in the spring. Researching this in the lotus-europa.com knowledge base only adds to the confusion, and since most of the posts there are from 2002 or so, may be outdated. This is further complicated by not knowing what fluids were in the car when I bought it, differences between model years, and availability of additives in different countries.

So, at the risk of starting a holy war (what's that saying? "Opinions are like a--holes, everybody's got one") here is my working list of fluids (yellow column). I welcome any input that will save my car from my own ignorance.
Tom
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline Pfreen

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #1 on: Saturday,January 20, 2018, 10:42:26 AM »
Where would you buy Castrol xl 20w-50 in the U.S.?  I could not find it and used regular Castrol gtx 20w-50.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #2 on: Saturday,January 20, 2018, 12:09:10 PM »
Motorcycle shops and some parts houses carry Castrol 20/50 motorcycle or oil and it has the (somewhat) higher levels of additives that many modern oils lack.

Online surfguitar58

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #3 on: Saturday,January 20, 2018, 01:16:30 PM »
Where would you buy Castrol xl 20w-50 in the U.S.?  I could not find it and used regular Castrol gtx 20w-50.

Oops! You’re right, I didn’t notice Castrol XL was not available in the USA. (You can buy it on eBay for $109/gal + $22 shipping, but that is the same thing as “unavailable” in my book.) Too bad, sounds like good stuff.

What do we think of Lucas Oil Hot Rod and Classic Car 20W50 Motor Oil? Claims to have lots of zinc, though doesn’t specifically say ZDDP. Sold at Walmart. Kind of sounds like Cold Duck compared to Castrol’s fine champagne, at least the way they market the stuff.
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline BDA

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #4 on: Saturday,January 20, 2018, 02:15:49 PM »
I had been warning people to make sure there was sufficient zinc in their oil till JB reminded me that the cam sits in a bath of oil and thus zinc is not as critical as for a spray lubed cam as in a push rod motor. I trust him on that, but I still use Red Line 10W40 per Red Line's recommendation. At a little over $11/qt when you buy 12 and $18/qt individually, you may decide that is just as available as Castrol XL.

I don't know specifically about Lucas Oil products.

Offline Pfreen

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #5 on: Saturday,January 20, 2018, 02:32:28 PM »
I have owned my Europa Special since 1986,  before I had ever heard of zddp.  Anyway, I have always used Castrol GTX 20-50 as recommended in the manual.  I did install new cams and lifters in 1991 and did not have any problems.  They are still in the engine.   I do not know how Castrol GTX has changed over the years, but for what it’s worth, that is what I used and can get for many years.

Offline cwtech

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #6 on: Sunday,January 21, 2018, 04:35:20 AM »
Be careful with the gear lube for the transaxle.  ....Most synthetics will attack any yellow metals (brass/bronze) which may be used in the transaxle.

Offline buzzer

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #7 on: Thursday,January 25, 2018, 01:28:19 AM »
Put my pennyworth in. A decent modern quality synthetic like Mobil 1 10-50 or similar.  My motto is run the engine in on std classic 20-50 then at first oil change move to synthetic. Modern oils are so much better on start up. Run my 711 block Westfield like that for many years and that gets thrashed.
No doubt others will have different views.
Not heard about gearbox synthetics eating bronze/brass, as there can’t be many gearboxes that don’t have a bronze bush somewhere
Dave,

Other cars. Westfield SEiW. BMW E90 Alpina D3. BMW 325 E30 convertible and Range Rover CSK

Offline cwtech

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #8 on: Thursday,January 25, 2018, 04:21:18 AM »
 In 1990, I encountered a problem using an industrial-equipment manufacturer's supplied gear lube.  ..It didn't take long for the brass/bronze components to be attacked.  ...The company suggested a different synthetic gear lube, but that was no better.  ....I did some research at that time and found that some synthetic gear lubes are marked as being safe for use with "yellow" metals, while many are not safe.

The "GL" ratings do not really indicate which lubes are safe.  ...All GL-1 are safe, but they are dino based, not synthetics.  ...Some GL-4 and GL-5 lubes are "safe" while others are not.

Here's something from the 'net:

"Yellow metals, as the name suggests, are yellowish in color. They are alloys that contain copper. A standard definition would be a type of brass having about 60 percent copper and 40 percent zinc. Bronze is another type of yellow metal. These metals have been used for centuries to form gears and other components of simple machines.

 The problem is that many extreme pressure oil additives contain a form of Sulphur, which will react with the yellow metal.

Two different types of sulfur may be used within these additives. The first type is active sulfur. Sulfur in its active state readily reacts with metal surfaces to form a ductile metal soap that is sacrificial and allows opposing surfaces to contact one another with minimal damage. Active sulfur is chemically aggressive, and with yellow metals being softer than steel, they can begin to pit and form spalls due to this chemical attack.

 The second type of sulfur used within extreme pressure oil additives is inactive sulfur. It is less likely to bond to surfaces and react chemically.

 The best way to judge whether the form of sulphur in the extreme pressure oil additives is likely to cause damage, is to look at the results of the copper strip corrosion test (ASTM D130). In this test, a strip of copper is immersed in the fluid to be tested at 40 degrees C and again at 100 degrees C. The strip is removed after each test and checked for staining of the copper. The results range from, very little to no staining, all the way to very dark stains. If the results are in the darkish area, then the yellow metals in your worm gearboxes could be at risk of chemical attack.

 Rising temperatures can increase the rate at which this reaction takes place. This is explained by the Arrhenius rate rule, which states that the rate of a chemical reaction doubles for every increase of 10 degrees C (18 degrees F) in oil operation temperature.

 Active sulfur in some extreme pressure oil additives react with the copper within the brass or bronze. Sulfur, when in contact with copper along with the presence of heat, forms copper sulfide.

 This simple chemical reaction can have devastating repercussions on the reliability of machines. In extreme pressure situations, copper disulfide can be formed. Both of these crystalline forms of copper are very hard and can cause abrasive damage to soft machine surfaces."

Online surfguitar58

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #9 on: Thursday,January 25, 2018, 07:00:22 AM »
What does the tribe think about using 20w/50 Mobil 1 V-twin motorcycle oil in a twin cam? Synthetic. 20w/50. Lots of Zinc (1750 ppm). What’s not to love?

Good intel on active sulfur in gear oil, will be sure to avoid that. Thanks cwtech.
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline Bainford

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #10 on: Thursday,January 25, 2018, 08:31:34 AM »
Thanks cwtech! That is the best explanation for gear oil attacking yellow metals that I've seen yet. I have always found the claim to be puzzling, but your post provides a reasonable and understandable explanation. Cheers.
The Twin Cam plays the symphony whilst my right foot conducts the orchestra. At 3800 rpm the Mad Pipe Organ joins in.

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Offline jbcollier

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #11 on: Thursday,January 25, 2018, 10:18:56 AM »
Mobil 1 V-Twin is a good choice.  Getting hard to find though.  Mobil 1 10/50 is not that far behind and is my choice.

(should read 15/50, sorry)
« Last Edit: Friday,January 26, 2018, 11:39:19 AM by jbcollier »

Online surfguitar58

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #12 on: Friday,January 26, 2018, 10:36:25 AM »
For whatever it's worth, this was my question and response from the "ask Mobil" help desk:

"Question : Can I use 20W/50 Mobil 1 V-twin motorcycle oil in my flat tappet 1973 Lotus twin-cam engine (no catalytic converter)? It has the recommended viscosity rating, high zinc levels (1750 ppm ZDDP) and desireable Mobil 1 properties. My only concern would be the effects of whatever additives are included to enhance motorcycle wet clutch operation, otherwise it sounds like a perfect match. Please advise."

"I would not recommend using the Mobil 1 V-Twin, rather, I would consider using the Mobil 1 15W-50. It has a slightly lower amount of ZDDP (1300) but it still be about 30% over the recommended threshold for older engines with flat tappet valve trains.

Thank you for choosing Mobil,
Jake Ackerman
Mobil Help Desk Team Lead"




"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #13 on: Friday,January 26, 2018, 12:01:35 PM »
Ok, yes, you have a "flat-tappet" engine.  But, no, you really don't have a flat tappet engine ;-)

The problems with cam and tappet wear is on flat-tappet engines with spray/drip lubrication to the cam lobes.  This means a typical pushrod engine with the camshaft part way up the block operating the valves via tappets/lifters, pushrods and rockers.  The cam/tappet surfaces are lubed by oil dripping down, and, oil spray off the crank.  When the engine is cold, most of the oil has run off the cam/tappet surfaces and it takes a while before it gets there again.  Worse are people who warm up their engines by prolonged idling as the oil pressure is lower at idle so it takes even longer to flow to the cam/tappet surfaces.  That aside, this type of engine greatly benefits from anti-wear additives such as ZDDP.

Your engine has an overhead cam and the camshaft lobe and tappet surfaces are in oil all the time.  There is a "well" that holds oil in place.  Have a look the next time you adjust your valves.  ZDDP levels are not that critical in this type of engine.

I worked on tons of British sports car over a 35 year period.  We noticed when ZDDP levels dropped because suddenly we were getting far more camshaft/lifter wear on the push-rod engines.  Lots of cam and lifter changes were required and there were problems with it all happening again quite soon thereafter.  This is where the drive for oils with higher ZDDP came from.  At the same time, we also did a lot of Jaguar work and never had a single cam fail no matter what sort of god-help-us oil was used, or how long it was in there.

Offline Gary t

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Re: Precious Bodily Fluids
« Reply #14 on: Friday,January 26, 2018, 04:57:11 PM »
Just to fan the flames- I ride a motorcycle that has a overhead cam that runs in a bathtub of oil and if one was to (even in a very small voice) mention using a reduced ZDDP oil you would risk banishment. Just saying no personal experience.
Gary
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