Author Topic: Decisions decisions...  (Read 7062 times)

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Offline Pete Gossett

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Decisions decisions...
« on: Sunday,August 19, 2012, 02:24:00 PM »
I had myself talked into a Zetec swap, but reading details of how rebuilding the twink is cheaper in the long run has me doubting myself.
So I'll pose the question to the group and get the input from those more knowledgeable and experienced than myself.

These are my goals:

!.) 150ish + HP - although I'm as concerned about torque, as this will be a street-driven autocross car.

2.) Reliability - I expect the car will see about 2000mi/year with a dozen or so autocrosses, and I really don't want to worry about much more than the occasional oil change for quite a few years.

3.) Budget - cheaper is better given the choice, but I've learned enough over the years to know that sometimes you just need to spend the $$ to do things right.

I'm no machinist, so I'd have to farm out any of that work. Unfortunately, I live in the middle of nowhere, so unless the machine work is basic enough that your standard V8/muscle-car machinist could do the work, I'm not even sure where to go. I can assemble an engine once the hard work is done, so that's no problem.

I also have access to junkyard Zetecs for $75+core, and it seems twinks are worth a bit in any condition, so that may sway things as well.

I'm not really concerned about originality, so if there is another engine choice that is the more cost-effective way to reach my goals, let me know!

What would you recommend?

Offline benbeames

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #1 on: Sunday,August 19, 2012, 04:57:55 PM »
For what its worth, I spent about $4000 in total including $1100 for my engine and ecu to convert my car to a Toyota 4AGE using Pels adapter, mounts, and header.  I did the whole swap in 11 days being a week of vacation, the weekends on both sides of that week and then a couple more Saturdays.  Depending on which 4AGE you use you could have anywhere from 120 to 170hp and they can be hopped up to higher outputs too.

I actually wanted to do a zetec conversion, but the Toyota swap just seemed so much simpler


Offline Pete Gossett

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #2 on: Sunday,August 19, 2012, 06:43:12 PM »
Wow, that seems reasonable.

Is the 170hp 4AGE you mentioned supercharged or n/a?

Offline benbeames

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #3 on: Sunday,August 19, 2012, 08:11:41 PM »
The 170 hp one is N/A. It's called a black top 4age 20valve (being 5 valves per cylinder).  They are the newer of the 4AGE's which actually makes it a little easier to find parts for then my older 16 valve. At least when I was looking for components I always found 20 valve parts before I found the 16 valve parts. The black top has variable valve timing so it's a little more complex then the older ones and may be harder to extract more power then stock. But again 170hp is a big increase for a Europa.

Offline benbeames

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #4 on: Sunday,August 19, 2012, 08:19:43 PM »
By the way, having a cable shifter in your car makes any engine swap a lot easier. If you're thinking about an engine swap that's good place to start.

Offline Pete Gossett

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #5 on: Monday,August 20, 2012, 03:48:37 AM »
Yes, a cable shift setup certainly seems worth the effort.

Are the black-tops a JDM-only option, or we're they available in US models?

Offline benbeames

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #6 on: Monday,August 20, 2012, 07:35:22 AM »
I had to look it up, but they are JDM. I see them so often, I thought they were for the America market too. Even my 16v is JDM though it didn't have to be.  I found it was easier to get a complete engine, wiring harness and ECU all together when I got it from a JDM importer.  But being JDM can be a hassel when you're trying to track down the right parts for it. There are a number of Europa owners with blacktops in their cars though. I was just talking to one of them this weekend. I'll see about getting you in touch with him.

Offline Pete Gossett

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #7 on: Monday,August 20, 2012, 09:45:40 AM »
Thanks!

Offline benbeames

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #8 on: Monday,August 20, 2012, 12:27:28 PM »
While I'm waiting for the guy to get back at me you can ponder putting a Formula Atlantic 4AGE engine in your car like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hasselgren-Formula-Atlantic-4AGE-/270924909777?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f14620cd1&vxp=mtr#ht_768wt_986


247 hp!   But at a cost of $13,0000!!!!!

Offline Pete Gossett

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #9 on: Monday,August 20, 2012, 03:54:21 PM »
Ha! Actually, on the drive home I was thinking about guys I know who autocross a Formula Atlantic and wondering if they might have a spare engine lying around...  :))

Offline benbeames

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #10 on: Thursday,August 23, 2012, 03:36:39 PM »
How goes the decision making process?

Offline Pete Gossett

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #11 on: Friday,August 24, 2012, 04:16:28 AM »
Waiting on the Dave Bean catalog to arrive, then I can start putting the info into a spreadsheet to get a better gauge on costs vs. time vs. custom fabrication and machine work.

I could probably live with 130-140hp from the twink, if that's truly cheaper than either swap though.

But I'm also not ruling out something totally crazy(for one of my cars anyway). If I could find the right FWD donor in the junkyard and get the whole front half of the car for cheap, I'd consider completely reworking the back half of the Europa to adopt the donor cradle as-is. Obviously would require a bit of fab work and fiberglass, but I think I could avoid costly machining. And one of my Europas is enough of a basket-case that I wouldn't feel too horrible about butchering it.

Offline benbeames

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #12 on: Friday,August 24, 2012, 06:49:04 AM »
From time o time I joke about finding a run down Ferrari 308 and stuffing it's small v8 in the europa  ;D

Offline Pete Gossett

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #13 on: Friday,August 24, 2012, 08:30:22 AM »
Well I imagine it would end up as one of the most expensive Europas in existence, Though maybe not in resale value!

Offline Pete Gossett

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Re: Decisions decisions...
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday,September 12, 2012, 04:08:20 AM »
Well after pricing out a rebuild of my twink, and scoring a Zetec Weber intake off eBay for 1/2 of what they sell for from the vendors, I think that is the direction I'm heading.

So the next question is what's this pile of twin cam parts worth?

I have the stock 40,000mi engine still in the '72. It hasn't been started in 20+years, but has been stored inside and isn't locked.

The engine from the '73 is partially disassembled. It had a stuck piston when the PO bought it, which he freed, and includes a new piston & rings.

Is eBay the best option to sell these? I really don't care to deal with their policies as a seller.