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Lotus Europa Forums => The Paddock => Topic started by: Valerio Leone on Saturday,July 18, 2015, 06:46:39 AM

Title: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Valerio Leone on Saturday,July 18, 2015, 06:46:39 AM
Lightened crankshaft (-1.5 kilos)
Lightened rods (by saenz) and pistons (-120 grams each)
Aluminium flywheel by fidanza (-3.5 kilos)
Pistons CPS italy CR 11.5/1
cam 43-73-67-37 lift 108
electronic ignition by 123
exhaust manifold by RD lotus
Intake manifold 4 barrels by me.
two weber 40 DCNF
intake valve 38
exhaust valve 33
head totally ported and straightened.
bronze guide
 :happy-bday:
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: HealeyBN7 on Saturday,July 18, 2015, 07:18:26 AM
What a treat to see such a fine build first thing in the morning.  Looks very potent!

Dean
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: jbcollier on Saturday,July 18, 2015, 08:38:03 AM
Fit an oil cooler.
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Valerio Leone on Saturday,July 18, 2015, 09:33:48 AM
I have the Oil cooler, but for the Dyno bench test I prefer take it out. Less stuff around is better  C:-)
I hope is powerful as it Looks! :-)

 
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: BDA on Saturday,July 18, 2015, 11:59:47 AM
That looks like a monster! It should really go!  :beerchug:
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Mecky on Monday,July 20, 2015, 02:19:11 PM
Looks great :)
What does the dyno say?

Do you mean the Saenz rod are 120 gramms lighter than the original ones, or did you reduce the weight of the Saenz rods? And did you change the displacement?
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Valerio Leone on Wednesday,July 22, 2015, 06:00:28 PM
Ciao Mecky!


We will make the dyno test in September. I'will keep you posted guys!
Regarding the con-rod Saenz I must tell you, they are lighter than the gordini one! Only 460 grams! I use to run with the stock R16, 560 grams. Hope i can feel the difference!
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Valerio Leone on Thursday,July 23, 2015, 12:10:56 AM
Thanks everyone guys! I am glad you like my job! The next post is going to be a video of dyno test. Whatever is the result, we will finally know how many steam we could squeeze out from one wedge! :-D
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Rosco5000 on Thursday,July 23, 2015, 10:09:31 AM
That is a beautiful looking engine.  I can't wait to find out what you make for power out of the wedge head.
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: EuropatcSPECIAL on Sunday,July 26, 2015, 02:45:42 AM
Nice work Valerio
all the best
Stuart
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: kallericcar on Friday,August 14, 2015, 05:45:56 AM
It is nice to see someone building the wedge.  I have had several Europa race cars.  One I found in pristine condition in a time capsule, preserved as it had come off the track in the 80's- a LEGAL SCCA E Production car that was a major contender in the region back in the day.  This car was scrutinized to the nth degree, and they questioned the carb/manifolds and flares.  The "Hermes" kit was allowed since it was somewhat of a factory/dealer option.  Of course this engine was built to the max on the inside- my limiter in this car was valve float around 8k on the long straights.  Gordini or other engine swaps were out of the question in real SCCA racing- vintage clubs either don't know or don't care about the swaps.  Here's my 67 S1 EP race car as I found it in the previous owner's garage!  I miss this car.  I sold it to an old racer in our club who always wanted it.  he was killed by the ramp on his race car semi trailer and I later saw it for sale at Wire Wheel.  Someone got a nice car.

 
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Willa on Wednesday,September 09, 2015, 06:07:27 AM
Hi Valero,
How is the build going?
I look forward to hearing how the dyno run goes.
Cheers

Willa
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Valerio Leone on Friday,October 23, 2015, 02:44:17 PM
123HP.
Tomorrow I will post official data and pictures.
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Valerio Leone on Saturday,October 24, 2015, 11:08:56 AM
here are the documents.

 :pirate: :pirate: :pirate: :pirate: :pirate: :pirate: :pirate: :pirate: :pirate: :pirate: :pirate: :pirate: :pirate:
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: BDA on Saturday,October 24, 2015, 11:48:27 AM
That should get you down the road! Very nice!   :beerchug:
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Valerio Leone on Saturday,October 24, 2015, 11:59:45 AM
 :beerchug:

thanks!
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: lotusfanatic on Tuesday,December 10, 2019, 03:30:31 AM
Hello Valerio,

how is the engine that you made?
Did it perform as you had hoped for?

Mark
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,December 12, 2019, 03:39:35 AM
The torque figure of 155 Nm is very nice for that small engine. 123 HP seems to be quite near to the limit of the wedge head.

Now that you replaced it with a cross-flow, how do they compare? I think I remember something like 138 HP from the cross-flow engine, which disappointed you a little bit. Have you been able to upgrade this engine spec?
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: gideon on Thursday,December 12, 2019, 12:05:11 PM
I believe this post shows that Willa was getting 136 HP at the wheels from a wedge engine.

http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1053.msg29612#msg29612

That would have to be in the region of 160 HP at the crankshaft, no?
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Willa on Thursday,December 19, 2019, 02:32:34 AM
Hi Gideon,
The engine does produce great power, we have not compromised anywhere.
I will post in my thread recent mods.

Valerio’s car and engine development, pics are a thing of beauty and I would love to see his car first hand.
Hope you all have a great Christmas
Cheers,
Willa.

Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: dakazman on Saturday,January 25, 2020, 07:11:51 PM
  Valerie , where did you find the intake manifold and are those Weber IDF carbs?
Dakazman
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: jbcollier on Saturday,January 25, 2020, 09:54:35 PM
They are not IDA/Fs, they are DCNFs.
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: dakazman on Sunday,January 26, 2020, 05:04:29 AM
   Just thinking of the next wedge engine , his intake looks very similar to this manifold design from a fiat. Of course most of dimensions may be different . I’m just a novice with a lot to learn.
All his upgrades must probably be done to handle these .

  https://www.ebay.com/itm/fiat-X1-9-Dual-weber-42-dcnf-carburators-and-pbs-intake-/124044850433

Dakazman
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: jbcollier on Sunday,January 26, 2020, 06:24:28 AM
Best practice is to keep the intakes as straight as possible.
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: gideon on Sunday,January 26, 2020, 09:28:18 AM
I believe Valerio made two manifolds to that design.  Serge has one.
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Serge on Thursday,February 06, 2020, 12:59:14 PM
I believe Valerio made two manifolds to that design.  Serge has one.

I think Valerio made a few sets (5?). I had two sets! I just sold one set to a fellow Europa owner, the other one is staying on my shelf for now.


Serge
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: lotusfanatic on Friday,March 20, 2020, 04:09:52 AM
The Valerio inlet manifold is a thing of beauty!

 :)
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Valerio Leone on Tuesday,June 02, 2020, 06:15:58 AM
   Just thinking of the next wedge engine , his intake looks very similar to this manifold design from a fiat. Of course most of dimensions may be different . I’m just a novice with a lot to learn.
All his upgrades must probably be done to handle these .

  https://www.ebay.com/itm/fiat-X1-9-Dual-weber-42-dcnf-carburators-and-pbs-intake-/124044850433

Dakazman

Good eyes, my design started from this manifold. Fiat of course. I am Italian..  :)) :)) :))
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: MRN I J on Wednesday,June 03, 2020, 11:53:46 AM
Best practice is to keep the intakes as straight as possible.

Hermes ones were exactly that, they used the original head type with the really bad inlet ports, one thing I found whist buying every Renault engine part that would fit my car was the last non crossflow heads had beautiful small round individual inlet ports, ideal for porting by someone who knows how to / uses a flowbench for guidance rather than accepting the flowbench as the be-all, end-all.
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: dakazman on Saturday,June 06, 2020, 06:41:06 AM
[

Hermes ones were exactly that, they used the original head type with the really bad inlet ports, one thing I found whist buying every Renault engine part that would fit my car was the last non crossflow heads had beautiful small round individual inlet ports, ideal for porting by someone who knows how to / uses a flowbench for guidance rather than accepting the flowbench as the be-all, end-all.
[/quote]

    Hi MRN I J or Valerio , do you have any flowbench results of any crossflow or wedge in its stock form? Or Modified? there seems to be no documentation in this area.
dakazman
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: MRN I J on Sunday,June 07, 2020, 10:39:12 AM
[

Hermes ones were exactly that, they used the original head type with the really bad inlet ports, one thing I found whist buying every Renault engine part that would fit my car was the last non crossflow heads had beautiful small round individual inlet ports, ideal for porting by someone who knows how to / uses a flowbench for guidance rather than accepting the flowbench as the be-all, end-all.

    Hi MRN I J or Valerio , do you have any flowbench results of any crossflow or wedge in its stock form? Or Modified? there seems to be no documentation in this area.
dakazman
[/quote]

Quite a few years ago I had a lot of airflow work carried out (in 1995 or there abouts) however I'm not sure that it was ever carried out properly, I never gave my head man from 2009 on to airflow test as I have spent the last 20 years on my core business, 50s Aston Martin's getting the hp up from 77 hp per ltr (61 CI) o 92.5 + bhp per ltr (61 CI). I can look at the figures & see if they were BS, I could also have new tests carried out as one of my apprentices carries them out & my companies ex employee owns the rig but I'm unwilling to give them any advantage in my field, engine building.
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: MRN I J on Monday,June 08, 2020, 12:32:01 PM
I found the airflow sheet, it doesnt record the size & type of inlet valve tested, nor does it record exhaust flow at all so its all rather irrelevant.
I'll have to have some new test done, but more likely i'll speak to our (retired) head guy and ask his advice then use my own intuition to get the head ported the way it should be.
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: Valerio Leone on Thursday,June 11, 2020, 03:02:37 AM
I don't have any air flow results, the head has been prepared by an engineer that is working on Superbike championship.
In general the port design on an wedge head is just horrible, that is why the guy had to use Devcon to straighten the general layout.
I dont have anymore this masterpiece, Serge from Belgium have it now.
I think he will enjoy the 123HP and at the same time the huge torque that the engine provide.
My new setup is made with a Xflow head. more than 160HP is now pulling my Europa but the usable range is between 5000 to 8000RPM. unusable on the road.
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: dakazman on Thursday,June 11, 2020, 07:23:40 PM
Thank you Valerio,  I’m really just happy to learn and do an engine build step by step. Understanding why I did , what I will do is based on all the experts I’ve talked to and what I read. I also understand the limitations of this engine.
 Dave Kaczmarek
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: MRN I J on Tuesday,June 23, 2020, 09:03:29 AM
There are at least 3 'wedge' heads, we call them bathtub chambers.
Chambers are largely the same but need improvement to flow better around the larger inlet valve, the 1st photo is a Europa head which is awful, the 2nd photo is a R16 head from the late 70s, which is better.
The last photo is from a Renault Traffic circa 1981, this could be a really good head with its round inlet ports & square exhaust ports, I already know a crossflow head flows around 118cfm on a small Superflow (110?) flow bench, this would give 170+ bhp, if a non crossflow can be got up to somewhere near 110cfm & beyond it can give really good power.
The heads really need checking on a bigger machine as it's been found that the bigger machines give a more real world result.
I have a 45DCOE on an Else manifold, this can easily be modified to fit the later Traffic head, however it really needs twin 40s or 45s to make it really work, exhaust manifold would be 4 into 1 as it often gives more midrange with better low down pickup than a 4 into 2 into 1 system
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: dakazman on Tuesday,June 23, 2020, 07:50:30 PM
MRN,  thanks for posting that information .
Dakazman
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: lotusfanatic on Tuesday,June 23, 2020, 10:10:16 PM
Hello MRN,

I am interested in keeping a wedge head on the 1470 engine in my car and I would like to find the best variant of this head.
Thanks for posting the photographs,

Mark
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: MRN I J on Wednesday,June 24, 2020, 12:46:38 PM
Not easy to find 40 year old R Traffic heads though
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: MRN I J on Tuesday,June 30, 2020, 02:46:04 PM
wedge heads were still being used on new vehicles until the late 80s, in round port form to R18s, Trafic's & others.
although the round port looks best in reality the late 70s square port, what I call the middle head might be the one to use with the top of the port made into an arch (D laid on its side) as it looks as though it would promote a great deal of swirl, the round port has less but still some port induced swirl, both heads induce swirl into the centre of the cylinder away from the cylinder wall, only flow testing will prove which head to use but I have 2 mid heads & only one late head.
The biggest inlet valve ypu could use with either head is 41mm using a MECA PARTS 82.5mm bore head gaskets and a lot of head mods, this would entail the fitting of new valve seats, an easier & better inlet valve to fit would be 40mm, both 41 or 40mm inlet valves need a 31.5mm exhaust valve, it would need a new seat fitting as the heads are at least 32/33 years old.
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: MRN I J on Thursday,July 02, 2020, 01:56:49 PM
Help Needed:

My S2 was an Else converted car, I have the inlet manifold & Weber carb, if anyone has an Else rocker cover they would be prepared to loan me for a few weeks so I can get a casting pattern made it would be much appreciated, thanks
Chris Adams
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: MRN I J on Friday,July 03, 2020, 02:37:19 AM
Looking at the middle head (R16 821) the inlet / exhaust manifold bolt pattern is the same as a 697 early head, which means that the Else inlet manifold fits, just need to work out how to get the head to work with that inlet manifold - does it need port dividers welding into the manifold or not ?, a new manifold will need to be made to get the later head to work, but i've almost made uo my mind to make (fabricate ?) a twin Weber 45DCE Hermes conversion for the later head then I can race on similar / reasonably equal terms with the TC's in HSCC roadsports before I get too old and keep the rebuilt original engine on the shelf
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: MRN I J on Wednesday,July 08, 2020, 02:37:16 AM
Help needed :
can anyone tell me the distance between the manifold face (on a wedge) & the fuel tank on an S2 as mine isn't in one piece just now
Title: Re: wedge engine 821/697 the ultimate evolution.
Post by: dakazman on Wednesday,July 08, 2020, 04:40:38 PM
Can you project a line down from where you want the measurement to the glass body? I can install my tank and give to a measurement from there . I don’t have the engine or tank installed.
Dakazman